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     JJ2 competetive scene: trustworthy? | [q]2012-01-17 15:59
Vegito
CCavatar
JJnet user

Posts: 387
30
Hi all,

I wish to give you guys some information that may alter the entire jj2 competetive scene.
First, no, and I mean no game which is played at the ladder is trustworthy anymore. Every game may have someone playing with radar and it isn't traceable.

Now players may be wondering why in the world I would state such thing. First of all, I got my hands on Radar v2 today. I know exactly what is possible now. The levellist this radar version works on: Semi, JE, BBlair, BBswing, silwi, Gauntlet, Epitome, FF, WW, Distopia, super, TCS, DW and Zaitox.

I can test it out with you guys if you want, I dont care. I can give all information by just checking radar basically. I even know everybodies health.

Ah, I also dont need teamchat anymore because I know when my flagcarrier is low and I know when to shout "S" because I can see enemy flagcarrier getting 1. All automatically.

Now I cannot tell how long this has been around already, I just know from a source he's been given a couple of untraceable Radar versions already.

I'll be able to show screenshots and I will be able to give evidence of everything I am stating. You can come visit me at my house and I'll show you everything (of radar *cough*) for that matter.

Either way, laddering me is probably not gonna happen now anymore and I am aware of that. But I just wish players to know what is actually possible at jj2 and what you're dealing with. I also wish to get a discussion going and for someone to finally make whatever program that detects cheating - may if even be a program everybody has to use locally. That said, that'll probably be bypassable too so I might as well not play anything competetive at all anymore.

Enjoy.

Coders perhaps go here instead of reading this spam.
(This post has been helpful to 1 of the forumers.)
Replies
Lithium
aEs
avatar
Moderator
Posts: 1757
107
#176 | [q]2012-01-18 10:53
POSSIBLY THE LONGEST POST ON THE FORUMS (with quotes). READ AT YOUR OWN CAUTION.


Quote:
FUC- CHEATERS FUC- CHEATERS FUC- CHEATERS!!!!!! I will like every cheater who cheated with this IN A BAD WAY to die. I would like his PC to explode and kill him. Or even better, broke his legs or arms, and he stays alive without them :@ :@ :@ I AM ANGRY . HOW COULD YOU DO THIS FOR THIS LOVELY GAME ??? Damnit. GIMME THE LIST OF THOSE PPL PLEASE!


Quote:
HAHAHA SR? You said he is a Hero? You kiddin me ? NOONE CAN BE A HERO IF HE DID A MISTAKE ONCE. He did it once and was a hero later... for someone... not for me. He did it again, and he is a STUPID FOOL WHAT DESERVES TO DIE. I would like his brain to explode and be everywhere in the world. Fuc- you Artem. I am pissed off.


Quote:
...more random insults pointed at Artem


Calm down. Now.

Quote:
Don't forget I am also trying the same on JCF and on MSN


Bothering GLaDOS is not going to help, either.

Quote:
The only possible choice: Pausing the tournament by now on, until someone makes antitool or a new plus what blocks THIS PIECE OF SHI-.


Quote:
BTW there's going to be a lot of unfair ladders.


Why so? Don't you trust anyone now? What have we turned into? Just because Hakum and DL have radar the community must go into a "dark age" and stop playing ladders just because SOMEONE ELSE might be having radar? I still do not see my friends and certain people I know in the community as potential cheaters, thank you very much. I'm still open to playing ladders.

Quote:
maybe it IS the best to include a program that must be activated in order to play ladders... However it must include strong encryption, or its protocol will get hacked too.


Though this is kinda a good idea, I'm still worried because of sudden distrust among the community members...

Quote:
or this is most easy: ask artem what he wants, give it him, he will shutdown all programs


What is this, a hostage crisis? No thanks.

Quote:
ĐarkLightCÇ i just was bored and angry at admins of jjnet (I'M SORRY IT'S JUST ME BECAUSE I ALWAYS WANTED TO BE AN ADMIN, ANYWHERE AT "OFFICIAL" JJ2 THINGS, thanks if you understand me)


I wanted to be an admin as well, and you did not see me spreading undetectable cheat progs around.

Quote:
really stop calling me SCRIPTKIDDIE , RUSSIAN IDIOT, RUSSIAN FUCKER, AND SUCH
that's not my fault I created radar,
So think about this
If there was no radar1, there wouldnt be radar2
If sliver didnt ask me for radar1, there wouldnt be radar1
this is sliver's fault


TO ALL PEOPLE WHO POST HERE:

I will not tolerate any insults in this thread, even if they are pointed to Artem. Keep order.

As for the second part of this post: No, it is not Sliver's fault. It's all yours for making a cheat program.

Quote:
I think this program was only just created, however everyone knows cheating has been occuring for a while at the moment.
Now that we finally have some proof I think its time to take action.
How about freezing the ladder (temporary) and start playing just for honor again.
This will hopefully also have a positive effect on many younger players who treat most people as if they are an AI character.


I partially agree with this post, but there is no reason to stop the ladder.

Quote:
I agree with MS here, until this is solved newly submitted ladders will only cause fights and accusations.


As I have already said, I hope we haven't become that paranoid.

Quote:
Hey guys
i didn't do anything wrong, just asked Artem some stuff about Radar. and anyway, i am NOT in IB shocked? I AM IN CC. just joined to IB to catch HAKUM cheating. i didn't play any ladders for IB that was the plan, you may blame me now for everything i've done, but i had good intentions. also i talked with Artem 2days ago and we wanted to give Radar v2 to Hakum and then send the proof to admins. and why? because people have thought that HAKUM cheats a lot since always.


lame lame lame

You did.

Quote:
About clans who might cheat

I am pretty sure that the following clans will most likely not cheat

CDF - There is no way laro would approve of any cheatin. He'd most likely commit suicide

Cx - Idk what to say actually, im sure Raggy would never allow anyone to cheat

aEs - Lith is a respective admin, plus he gives us cake, so i dont mind if he cheats x). Also there are two nice coders there

CC - Veđito jojjan and fofel could probaly beat the crap out of any team in the whole game. i dont see why they would use some shit to power up their flawless skills even more. They do seem to have better things to do, no?

iB - Seems SR proved to be against cheats rather nicely. He seem to have finally started to take this game a bit more seriously

T3 - Sj and jjb seem to be rather trustworthy in my eyes, Also SJ's an admin

VS - They seem to be hardly active. theyr trustworthy thou,Also WR's an admin

GpW - U do not wanna accuse brus of cheatin bro >[

NF - If DZ decides to cheat..... (il leave it to ur imagination)


Not objective. Even admins can cheat, but as I said I won't be that paranoid and I'm still open to ladders.

Quote:
This thread is about you ruining the ladder system, and WE thinking/discussing how to fix it.


The ladder system is not ruined yet, and WE are the ones who are ruining it with such grave talk.

Quote:
It's not about ruining ladder system..... it's about ruining JJ2 entirely itself.


Devan Shell won?

Quote:
Well, I'm getting the feeling that the community is pressuring me to make this program. I've been spammed with MSN messages from several people, I'm being told to hurry up, which means I would have to neglect school for this project. Keep in mind that I do not get anything in return for this, that I'm writing a game I'm planning to sell later on, and that I am not a very active member of this community. I don't have to do this, yet I'm the one having been mentioned by everyone already even before I knew about this.

I doubt that I'm the only competent coder of this community. The last time I've written any program for JJ2 was years ago. In order to make this program completely fail-safe, a great deal of time would have to be put into it. While I do have the necessary time, the way I'm being commanded to do it, and the fact that there is no benefit for me from writing the project discourages and demotivates me from doing so. I have better things to do, such as learning for school, working on my own game or spending more time with friends, and I don't feel like I've got much of a connection to the community or mean anything to it outside of my clan, aEs. The only reason I'm still here is because of said clan and the fact that I have friends there, and they need me for playing ladder matches; yet I'm getting as much attention as if I was the only last hope for JJ2 while being treated more or less like a "coding slave".

I'm starting to understand why blur doesn't show up anymore. He probably found himself in a similar situation, albeit with far more of an impact than this one.


Exactly. Now everyone goes whining about radar, and when you give up your free time to make an anti-cheat program everyone will just forget you and radar and other people will take credit.




That's all I wanted to say. How about we stop whining and actually do something?








I'm a jj.net/forum moderator - feel free to contact me if you have issues with the site or the forum.
__________________________
We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
Vegito
CC
avatar
JJnet user
Posts: 387
30
#177 | [q]2012-01-18 10:57
Quote:
Why so? Don't you trust anyone now? What have we turned into? Just because Hakum and DL have radar the community must go into a "dark age" and stop playing ladders just because SOMEONE ELSE might be having radar? I still do not see my friends and certain people I know in the community as potential cheaters, thank you very much. I'm still open to playing ladders.


I don't think DL has if you read this thread well. I know quite a few people got radar now as Artem sent it to everyone who asked for it basically. Because there's no regulation of who got their hands on radar or whatever I guess a pause is the best. It is not "just" DL and Hakum (and there's no evidence for any of that what you're suggesting now btw). Though there is enough evidence of radar spreading out quickly emo.

Quote:
I partially agree with this post, but there is no reason to stop the ladder.


Why isn't there if literally anyone could be using radar now. It is the only way to make sure this ladder season is actually still gonna be fair. Any ladder happening now or even any suspicious move will be "OMG RADAR OMG CHEAT" and I am not looking forward to seeing such ladders and accusations all the time. It'll give you tons of work though due to so much flaming emo. Sure, there may be fair people but you know very well there are a lot of players who would enjoy radar and you know even better there are tons of players who go crazy and accuse anyone of cheating and will highly believe in it despite there not being any evidence. It is only gonna happen tons of times now.

Quote:
As I have already said, I hope we haven't become that paranoid.


Haven't yet? How many players have gone crazy over "omg Hakum must be cheating" without there being any evidence at all and there STILL not being any evidence? Yet everyone hates Hakum for something he may have possibly done? Just like you say DL/Hakum have radar/used radar in your post now which you can't even be sure of? So many pointless accusations have already be thrown around now that saying we aren't paranoid yet is not true anymore.

Quote:
The ladder system is not ruined yet, and WE are the ones who are ruining it with such grave talk.


Quote:
That's all I wanted to say. How about we stop whining and actually do something?


I agree with that but it's pretty obvious there are so many pointless accusations already. I doubt we're ruining anything "right now" - it has been done so much already. Due to the power of radar I do believe players must actually act and create something. I haven't got the skills so I can't really help either.

And also, by posting this here I hoped the pointless accusations would stop and action would finally be taken against cheating. By that I meant a program being created which would detect cheating or whatever. Something that's actually solid.
Lithium
aEs
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Moderator
Posts: 1757
107
#178 | [q]2012-01-18 11:12
I assumed DL and Hakum were using radar, however I didn't rage like some people did. Everything can and will be solved.


I'm a jj.net/forum moderator - feel free to contact me if you have issues with the site or the forum.
__________________________
We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
MasterSven
[CDF]
avatar
JJnet user
Posts: 376
41
#179 | [q]2012-01-18 12:02
There have already been a lot of unfair matches lith and there is only a bigger chance on more of them now.
You might not care if you lose vs a cheater or someone playing fair, but a lot of people do.
Keeping the ladder open and playing versus everyone like nothing happened will result in turning this into a nonsense-ladder.
Still Im repeating that not having a ladder might even be better for this community, certainly not the end.
Grytolle
avatar

JJnet admin
Posts: 844
87
#180 | [q]2012-01-18 13:31
Quote:
There have already been a lot of unfair matches lith and there is only a bigger chance on more of them now.
proof or stfu?

Quote:
Keeping the ladder open and playing versus everyone like nothing happened will result in turning this into a nonsense-ladder.

No one is forcing you to accept ladders, so what's the problem? What might make sense is to allow clans to refuse clanwars limitlessly. Seriously, some of you guys need to learn to think about what you propose andits consequences before you suggest it....


Quote:
Still Im repeating that not having a ladder might even be better for this community, certainly not the end.

You're old enough to know that that isn't true. JJ2 used to lose players, everyone was always saying it would be dead within months and if you wanted to play a competitive team game it took months to arrange. Again, people: 1) Think 2) Talk
MasterSven
[CDF]
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JJnet user
Posts: 376
41
#181 | [q]2012-01-18 13:56
Quote:
proof or stfu?

You know when someone knows your position, or beats you 10-0 in one map and loses 8-2 in another.

About your second quote: You wanted to freeze the ladder as well, that I not take time to explain it doesn't mean that I don't think about what I say.

Also, you should know that there are enough people not caring about competitive matches.
The ones that do would have more time for training and playing mixed games instead of laddering all the time.
As someone said: ladder matches should be considered as JDC games.
Clanwars have always been rare and took ages to arrange, that has never changed.
King
CX
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JJnet user
Posts: 208
34
#182 | [q]2012-01-18 15:46
I wrote about clans that would "most likely" not cheat (as it says in the comment). Also i made it to prevent ppl from bein so paranoid as u said they are. Ofc i cant know for sure if someone will cheat, just wanted ppl to feel a bit safer about it.


Player: Air!
Air: ?
zepect
avatar

JJnet user
Posts: 107
19
#183 | [q]2012-01-18 15:57
[18:54:54] Harmen: btw every programmer could create this
[18:55:06] Harmen: who knows maybe they all used it already but didnt publish the program
[18:55:53] Artem: idd, and if it's true, then ladder shouldn't be stopped, let them think radar is ``PRIVATE`` and NO ONE knows about it ;O!
emo
(This post has been helpful to 1 of the forumers.)
Toni
CC
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JJnet user
Posts: 437
34
#184 | [q]2012-01-18 16:21
I'm sure that there are still some private cheats what some TRUSTEE ppl use, but at least they're not public.
wKtK
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Webmaster
Posts: 707
121
#185 | [q]2012-01-18 16:22
Quote:
[18:54:54] Harmen: btw every programmer could create this with working maps and a window style/layout that doesn't look like barf


emo fixed emo


Nostalgia warning, well, at least if you're one of those ppl...
Grytolle
avatar

JJnet admin
Posts: 844
87
#186 | [q]2012-01-18 16:36
Quote:

You know when someone knows your position, or beats you 10-0 in one map and loses 8-2 in another.
No, you don't. It's quite possible to be that much stronger on one level than on another.

Quote:
About your second quote: You wanted to freeze the ladder as well, that I not take time to explain it doesn't mean that I don't think about what I say.

No, I didn't.

Quote:
Also, you should know that there are enough people not caring about competitive matches.
The ones that do would have more time for training and playing mixed games instead of laddering all the time.

That's no argument to not play ladder matches at all.

Quote:
As someone said: ladder matches should be considered as JDC games.

Yeah, so don't freeze them because of unbased suspicions. Playing JJ2 online was always a matter of trusting your opponents, considering how hard it is to detect cheating and prove it. Undetectable radar has been around this entire season (the earlier versions made before Artem added spyware in in the first place), we just didn't want to make a big deal out of it so that irrational people would call for irrational measures.

Quote:
Clanwars have always been rare and took ages to arrange, that has never changed.

Yeah, but they are a lot more frequent now, because there are more active clans.
Plumbe
-t3>
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JJnet user
Posts: 53
4
#187 | [q]2012-01-18 16:44
Quote:

Also, you should know that there are enough people not caring about competitive matches.
The ones that do would have more time for training and playing mixed games instead of laddering all the time.


As you put it, ladder games were a prevention for any other matches that are played. I'm online frequently enough to see that many mixed games are played in the servers; and as to your training reference, it's not the ladder matches that prevent clans from training together (since ladder matches make up a little part of all played matches in total) but the general lack of time the clan members are able to play at the same time.
Still, I don't mind a temporarily frozen ladder, but a missing ladder would most likely cause a loosening of the community on the long run.
MasterSven
[CDF]
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JJnet user
Posts: 376
41
#188 | [q]2012-01-18 16:59
FFS I dont know how you people make conclusions but all Im saying was that IF the ladder would be gone, jj2 would certainly not die.
Lithium
aEs
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Moderator
Posts: 1757
107
#189 | [q]2012-01-18 20:51
Quote:
*DL's post I deleted because it was full of insults*


Yeah, and that's what you claim. Maybe you do not have radar (if you really don't, then I apologize to you) but you can't really prove it...

Also, you said you joined ib) just to "spy" and catch Hakum cheating? I used to do such stuff when I was a NC/RW member, and I feel sorry for you if you're on the same level after months in the CTF community. Go play hotels.


I'm a jj.net/forum moderator - feel free to contact me if you have issues with the site or the forum.
__________________________
We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
Grytolle
avatar

JJnet admin
Posts: 844
87
#190 | [q]2012-01-18 21:12
1) Don't delete posts for no good reason. I didn't see much insults in it.
2) Don't repond to deleted posts


...pretty plz


What you say makes no sense: Having radar isn't a crime - using it in a ladder game is. DL hasn't played any ladders when she "was" in iB
Lithium
aEs
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Moderator
Posts: 1757
107
#191 | [q]2012-01-18 21:20
So if I call you a retard and mention that you're retarded again, that isn't a good reason for post deletion?

gg

edit: y u make me waste mah 777th post emo


I'm a jj.net/forum moderator - feel free to contact me if you have issues with the site or the forum.
__________________________
We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
Lahm
-t3>
rabbit
JJnet user
Posts: 146
8
#192 | [q]2012-01-18 21:21
Gry says what gry says gry has no ballz but hes the boss emo


ius is black
wKtK
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Webmaster
Posts: 707
121
#193 | [q]2012-01-18 21:21
Quote:
Having radar isn't a crime - using it in a ladder game is.


Indeed. Because when you want to make a program to stop this, You'll need it to make a succesfull antidote.
However, if I asked here for it, people would be like OMG WKTK HE CHEATS even though I can make a more effective program myself. (seriously hardcoded minimaps -_-)

Maybe It's better to just delete this whole thread. Almost nothing useful has been said here after the announcement Veg made, and the only think ppl do here now is argue and voice their suspicions.

Not really the best thread to have in an already shocked community...


Nostalgia warning, well, at least if you're one of those ppl...
King
CX
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JJnet user
Posts: 208
34
#194 | [q]2012-01-18 23:34
For gods sake...

Just play the ladder casual (without radar or any bs).Idea that we should play ladders with radar is ridiculous. The idea of frozing the ladder also is what i dissagree with. If ur scared that ur opponet is gonna cheat and u dont want to ladder then simply DONT ladder. Perhaps someone else is gonna have more faith in others. Play the ladders with people u feel u can trust and if u lose, dont even try to ask yourself if he used cheats or not. It probably wouldnt get u anywhere. Coders are doing their best to ensure safe play. In my comment i stated some clans which im pozitive would not cheat (ofc i cant know for sure, but i stated some reasons which why i think they wouldnt) to raise some confidence in u that u can play ladders safely. But like i said if ur too scared then simply dont ladder.


Player: Air!
Air: ?
(This post has been helpful to 2 of the forumers.)
Iustyn
CC
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JJnet user
Posts: 373
24
#195 | [q]2012-01-19 09:08
not rlly king
there are poeple that plays against some1 even if they suspect that person for cheat,they still ladder them and give them free points
why shall we still let the radar idiots play ladders(which seems to be what they were born for)?

KRSplat
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JJnet user
Posts: 189
15
#196 | [q]2012-01-19 11:53
Iustyn, the rule:
Quote:
§12 Any cheating or abusive behaviour during a match will result in a loss for the cheating team. The player found cheating is likely to be prevented from playing in a certain amount of upcoming games.

As Players, we know that we rely on each other's judgement to guarantee quality competition.
There's still Not Proof (or Claims) of tainted ladder Matches;

I ascertain the accused Parties don't deny using Said program(s);
The Referees, whoseever Position is to..
May decide how to treat previous Scores and their resultant Points.U

Directly, cutting to the Chase, I thought I Should Listen to you,
But more than three People are involved,
And had the Rest remained uninformed would be more unfair;

So I feel -
- I don't have infinitely unlimited Time to Play.
Mattere will be resolved as in a consensus you See fit( ? )
Anubis
CC
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JJnet user
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28
#197 | [q]2012-01-19 15:51
I'd delete it if I was an admin tbh XD DL is having her period again!
spaceboy
[calm]
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JJnet user
Posts: 128
13
#198 | [q]2012-01-19 15:59
hello guys haven't been here in a short while
so who got banned this time?


Quote:
ÐarkLightCÇ: im probably pregnant but w/e

P.S. i don't approve Ron97's existence, log off my face nub. emo
Jake
NF
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JJnet user
Posts: 99
4
#199 | [q]2012-01-19 16:00
Artem produced radar2, now without the spyware part.
wKtK
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Webmaster
Posts: 707
121
#200 | [q]2012-01-19 16:07
Quote:
so who got banned this time?

Unfortunatly, no one yet...


Nostalgia warning, well, at least if you're one of those ppl...
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