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     Discuss: The current clansystem does not work anymore | [q]2011-03-18 17:17
ThunderWalker
RDSrabbit
JJnet user

Posts: 140
4
First, I want the Moderators to ask to delete all posts containing spam and insults; both are not what you want in a discussion.
Granted. This thread is now under protection of the True Empire and the True Cake. ~Lithium
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
Here is my proposal for the next Season.


The current clanbase has a few major issues... and that is that next season will not end any different from this one regardless of scoring formula - only changing that will not help. CC is just too good for that. CC wins again, VS and GpW will fight for second an third place, but VS will likely come out on top again. NF and CDF will fight for forth and fifth place but NF will take the forth sooner or later. And Cpt. will be sixth again. The rest will follow. Is that what we want?


Therefore, I think the entire Ladder system needs an overhaul. The problem is not solvable with simple changes, and disbanding the clans would only result in the same clans restarting under a different name, and old clans like CC and GpW surely don't like that.

So, if we want to keep clans, it should be an individual system. Considering players greatly differ in their way of playing and their abilities, this ladder should be devided into several seperate brackets:

2vs2 - 3vs3 - 4vs4 - 5vs5, anything bigger - Combined

These are devided in: Kills / Killed (devided through amount of matches played) / Team Scores/Opposite Team scores (devided through amount of matches played)
As you see, this is individual noted. After a set time has passed, awards are given and we start over

So someone can get an award like 2vs2, Killed least often and another for 3vs3, Most Kills...
So there are twenty awards with this system, which likely scatter among a certain group of players.

Each bracket should have its own mappool.




A few rules should be made to prevent abuse (beating clanmembers/friends who are idling for example)... Therefore, spectators should be allowed but that isn't enough to solve it.

This definately has its downsides... main one is that this puts clans almost out of commission and another is that people will try to abuse it.

Clans can keep existing however, mainly for the World Cup, but their role diminishes greatly.


So discuss: I just spewed something around where we can discuss about emo
Replies
Lithium
aEs
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JJnet user
Posts: 1758
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#1 | [q]2011-03-18 19:25
Count on our service. There shall be no spam around while I,the defender of the True Cake draw breath emo

Those are some nice ideas here,but Grytolle said we should wait for the clanwar to end and then post our suggestions -somewhere- and the best will be accepted for the new season.


We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
Lithium
aEs
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JJnet user
Posts: 1758
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#2 | [q]2011-03-18 19:31
One correction: GpW gets to be first in the next season emo


We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
ThunderWalker
RDS
rabbit
JJnet user
Posts: 140
4
#3 | [q]2011-05-20 15:45
Me kicks this thread up again. emo
We need to find a solution ^^ .
Grytolle
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JJnet admin
Posts: 847
87
#4 | [q]2011-05-20 15:59
so you wanna remove the clans part from the clan ladder? interesting

hmm, there could be a draft system for new players :p I'm sure Wallace won't mind explaining in detail how that works for the NHL XD
[GpW]Urbs
[GpW]
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Posts: 376
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#5 | [q]2011-05-20 18:07
well we could have a universal body that would have all the clans under "one roof" like in the NBA, NHL and NFL. Those leagues are way more competitive than say, the european football leagues, where the rich clubs dominate. OFC clans like CC and GpW might have some issues with the fact they'd be less powerful in this new arrangement, but I say, fuck em!

It's all up for discussion, there can be a cap on registered players here on JJnet (like 6 or 5 per team per season, no hopping during the seaon, although that might be unrealistic).
Ofc that would mean clans themselves lose sovereignity, meaning they don't get to decide about some stuff for themselves but instead they have to decide it as a group. (1 vote per clan)

It's doable. And I wouldn't be against it.
Nor am I against the current state of affairs, which is also rather understandableemo
Lithium
aEs
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JJnet user
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#6 | [q]2011-05-20 18:33
Lithium's Imperial Council for Clan Affairs and Clan Control would do the job. We're biased too,and accept bribe in cake!

I'm not sure about the idea,I like some things as they are now,but there is still room for improvements.


We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
Anubis
CC
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JJnet user
Posts: 181
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#7 | [q]2011-05-20 20:31
If kills/killed stats give you extra points for the ladder, then I completely disagree. I don't play CTF matches for stats and never will. And even if it's just for the awards, it will lower the quality of many matches, where certain players will just play for stats, especially if their team is already leading in the match. Or there will be players who will just care about the awards more than caring about getting points for their clan. There is also always the possibility of bashing weak clans for stats. There you go, I think this idea is out emo

Also GpW has a chance to win just about as much as CC does. And I think you're underestimating T3, they will most likely end up in a better position than CDF/NF emo 4vs4 and bigger games are usually a lagfest, not suitable for competitive play at all (except JDC events). Lag is already a significant factor in many ladder matches.

And even more separate ladders? There is already a separate TB ladder which is going relatively slow.

And no Urbs, CC has many active members willing to play, and so does GpW, this will just never work emo
[GpW]Urbs
[GpW]
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#8 | [q]2011-05-20 21:26
anubis I dont know what activity has to do with my post.
If they are active in CC they will be active otherwise as well.
Just saying that there are 2 models: the EU one and the US one. The US one is centralized (ironic for those of us who study economics) and it enduces a higher degree of egalitarianism (profits from all clubs go into one bag and are divided equally, whereas on JJ2 members would be divided equally), which, again ironically, leads to a more competitive league.
The single entity (clan, club) has to give up its power, to be part of a stronger collective (like the EU for example).
ThunderWalker
RDS
rabbit
JJnet user
Posts: 140
4
#9 | [q]2011-05-20 21:33
We can always scrap the kill/killed part to prevent statwhoring though. This is a thread to talk about a new system for laddering, not really my idea exclusively. If you've some idea, just throw it out, Anubis. We can't find a good solution for the flaws of the current ladder system if we keep our ideas in our minds without posting them at all, eh emo

Anubis: Yes, -t3> can beat CDF/TFC, but they are simply not active enough.
Also CDF lost a few of its WT members recently so I think they're inferior to TCF now.

GpW/CC are pretty much even indeed... however, CC was much larger than GpW at the time of writing the opening post so I guessed they would win through sheer activity ^^. But they don't ladder very often this season, so well...

I actually think Urbs' idea is a better idea than mine, actually.
Just small teams consisting of less than 10 players ^^.
Anubis
CC
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#10 | [q]2011-05-20 21:35
What I meant is that our members are active AND loyal. They won't go join another clan just because someone decided to change the ladder system. It's just unrealistic, just like it's unrealistic to expect the EU to change their system to the US one, or vice versa.

T3's inactivity isn't a problem, they can just win a clanwar emo

I already spat out my suggestions when the point system was being discussed at the end of last season: Opponent quality system like in JDC (already applied in JDC 2v2s 3 years ago?). Then you can't get free points by bashing new clans and the ladder would be based a bit more on skill and a bit less on activity. But that still doesn't solve your problem, CC and GpW would just end up first.
Treylina
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JJnet user
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#11 | [q]2011-05-20 21:55
If you want people to get points for killing, consider DCTF an actual division, don't make it part of the normal CTF it is. But as Anubis said, the TB division is already going relatively slow as it is. That's all I have to say for now. Yes, CC and GpW may be the strongest clans (at least in CTF anyway), but you just have to keep practicing, weaker people shouldn't be rewarded more, even though it may be predictable on who wins, as much as I somewhat dislike to say it. Look I don't think I'm a great player myself (but not too bad either). But a quality system would help, but that's already been suggested and awaiting development. That's all I have to say for now.


[19:55:50] VLAD8: YOU BITCH
[19:56:24] VLAD8: TREYLINA LETS BY FRIENDS

It's been almost 3 years and JJ.net STILL hasn't fixed the freaking cookies. No wonder hardly anyone posts here anymore.
[GpW]Urbs
[GpW]
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#12 | [q]2011-05-20 22:02
ya but see anubis, thats exactly what i said in my post...
you guys (and us to the same degree i suppose) are acting like barcelona and real madrid, whereas we prosper the rest don't and the whole league is just utterly uncompetitive.
I'm saying, we're willing to change that, to have a more competitive ladder.
You are saying that you clearly are not.

And its not like you cant keep your members and and your meetings and stuff. But you wouldnt have just one team anymore (thats the worrying part though, cuz at least for a while the old clans would use the new teams for training and mby even do cw's with them to hog points..., so the GpW1 could go vs GpW2 and pwn em in a cw to get free points).

Just saying, although I don't mind the system atm cuz GpW is flourishing, that doesn't mean I'm not willing to admit it has serious faults from the competitive point of view.
OFC you would expect GpW and CC to say that the current status is OK, and you would expect the other clans to moan and grumble, that's a given - my point is that if we are genuinely looking at ideas to boost the level of competition, then we need to reconsider the current model of the ladder (where I dont mean we need to change the point system as badly as we need to change the imperialism of CC, who even call themselves the empire, and of GpW, to make the league more fun for all players). NBA, NFL,NHL compared to La Liga and you'll get my point exactly. One is corrupt and boring (minus the el classico), whereas the other is fun for all.

Do I think this will ever change? Not sure. Anubis has already made it quite clear that he's not for it. I'm willing to reconsider it for the next season. Hell,might even pull the old "lead by example" for next season, who knows?emo
Anubis
CC
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#13 | [q]2011-05-20 22:09
Well, me not being for it won't matter if the majority supports your idea. I wonder what the other people/clans think though, so far we only know you support it and I don't (you said "we", who else in GpW is for it?). The main problem is that unlike in sport leagues in real life where it's about money, here people play for fun, people from the same clan are friends etc, and splitting a clan isn't something many of its members would really like to see. And you don't need to mention twice in one post that I'm clearly not for it, as you can see I'm not like "FU NO WAY" and I'm willing to discuss it emo
[GpW]Urbs
[GpW]
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#14 | [q]2011-05-20 22:09
check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTVKt250MO4
Ana
rabbit

JJnet user
Posts: 200
17
#15 | [q]2011-05-22 13:18
why do u keep comparing jj2 with real life situations?There is no connection between these 2. I agree with Anubis,the current system is just fine.The best clans should always win. The rest can only train.Why should CDF win if they are not better than CC?Why should the clan ladder care about increasing their chances to win?It`s their problem. I think the ladder is competetive like this. CC /GPW /T3 are fighting for the 1st place which they deserve and the weaker clans for the rest. Figthint against better opponents can only help u to improve.
ThunderWalker
RDS
rabbit
JJnet user
Posts: 140
4
#16 | [q]2011-05-22 13:41
Ana is right... but is the ladder season fun if the winner is already decided before the season starts?
Lithium
aEs
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Posts: 1758
107
#17 | [q]2011-05-22 14:22
of course,if you're in the winner team


We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
Ana
rabbit

JJnet user
Posts: 200
17
#18 | [q]2011-05-22 14:44
It depends on what u understand by "fun".For me ,playing a game with the people I LIKE is fun even if i don`t win (which happens quite often bec GRY IS ALWAYS IN THE OPPOSITE TEAM :d) . U can`t change the ladder bec for u (NOT for everyone) it isn`t fun. This is not a good reason to make so big changes.
ThunderWalker
RDS
rabbit
JJnet user
Posts: 140
4
#19 | [q]2011-05-22 16:13
Ana, you misunderstood what I said though you're mostly right.
The point of the entire game is to be fun, actually, and not only the ladder.
What you said is game-related, but not so much ladder-related emo
Ana
rabbit

JJnet user
Posts: 200
17
#20 | [q]2011-05-22 16:19
When u play ladders ,u don`t play a game? A game=a ladder is won or lost .It was ladder/game-related.
ThunderWalker
RDS
rabbit
JJnet user
Posts: 140
4
#21 | [q]2011-05-22 16:33
You can play a game without ladders, but you can't play ladders without a game.
Ana
rabbit

JJnet user
Posts: 200
17
#22 | [q]2011-05-22 16:37
Which means that a ladder is a subset of the game, and a subset always inherits the properties of its superset.
Ana
rabbit

JJnet user
Posts: 200
17
#23 | [q]2011-05-22 16:38
Anyway,we are diverting from the subject with this discussion so let`s agree to disagree.
[GpW]Urbs
[GpW]
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Posts: 376
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#24 | [q]2011-05-22 16:57
Well Ana all I was trying to say is that the dynamics of our ladder situation are similar to the situation of say La Liga, or MLB, as opposed to the situation in some other sports.
OFC the powers that be would prefer if things stayed the way they are (hey, thats like asking the Roman Empire if it want's to be disolved...), but that is not to say it is in the best interest of everybody that things stay the way they are.

I mean, just look at the scene, there's like 5 clans altogether, whereas there is enough players for 15 clans... The least we can do is admit the situation is sub-optimal.
ThunderWalker
RDS
rabbit
JJnet user
Posts: 140
4
#25 | [q]2011-05-22 17:09
You're right, Ana. However, a ladder has also the function to be competitive, otherwise it is only fun for the strongest players/clans.

Offcourse, the best clans/players should be on top of the list but I think there are more competitive ways of accomplishing that than the current system.

There is room for way more clans... but on the other hand, you can't disband clans which exist for several years offcourse ^^

@Urbs: Fifteen-twenty clans seems a good number for a competitive ladder. 5-7 just isn't enough. But well, breaking up clans has its issues due to the members are humans, and not machines.
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