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     Season 7 proposals | [q] 2012-10-27 12:56
cooba
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1. Ditch the playoffs, they make for a boring season without clanwars. The last legit clanwar was this: http://jazzjackrabbit.net/index.php?league=1&season=1&op=descr&id=2092

2. Do something to the mappool that isn't just a vote.

ty for listening

[img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m43740Utwq1ruqk3oo1_400.jpg[/img]


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Replies
Grytolle
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#26 | [q]2012-10-29 21:46
If you want more clanwars, just challenge people three times? The reason that there aren't any clanwars is that no one is very interested...

Something that we can actually hope to make real improvements too is the mappool. I've been toying with the idea of adding a new level every now and then on a trial basis, somehow. One extra level could be part of the mappool for two weeks or something like that, then replaced by another etc. I'll also get around soon to arranging the vote that I promised after the NT on the maps that had been featured there
cooba
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#27 | [q]2012-10-29 23:10
Grytolle wrote:
The reason that there aren't any clanwars is that no one is very interested...

Nobody is interested in making any because they will happen by default. Am I the only one who sees the simple math behind this? (Also King is 100% right).

Quote:
I'll also get around soon to arranging the vote that I promised after the NT on the maps that had been featured there

Not much point now if the season is nearly over, no?


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Lithium
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#28 | [q]2012-10-29 23:14
cooba wrote:
Quote:
I'll also get around soon to arranging the vote that I promised after the NT on the maps that had been featured there

Not much point now if the season is nearly over, no?


But the new one should start soon emo


We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
Grytolle
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#29 | [q]2012-10-30 10:50
I see no reason why the mappol couldn't be changed at this time. It'll still take a month or two before the entire season ends, even if the regular one is coming to a close.

If it were true that people would otherwise be interested, we'd have had a lot of clanwars in the past. We didn't. Only in exceptional circumstances do clans seem interested in arranging clanwars.

There is zero extra value in spontaneity. That cliché might very well hold true for one's relationships, but not for clanwars, which are normally planned weeks in advance in either case.

Toni
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#30 | [q]2012-10-30 21:14
The best solution is to force clan wars happen. The only thing coming up in my minds is something like KRSplat suggested - clans will be randomly picked (read: REMOVE IDLE CLANS.) and forced to play ClanWars. There should be a CW scheduled within 2 weeks. New CW will be scheduled every month, and the next season should last longer, something around 500pts.
Ragnarok
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#31 | [q]2012-10-30 22:47
Based on what King said, yeah I highly prefer the old system. At least it encouraged activity. Now all I'd care about is top 4, and not even where I come in the top 4...
Lithium
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#32 | [q]2012-10-30 23:23
The old system... with the community like this, it'll be t3 and CX rushing ladders and then doing a CW against each other while RDS, GpW and CDF can just sit back and watch because they do not have enough time to play 20 ladders a day/train to challenge t3/CX. Still, it's better than radical changes - I would like to see clanwars too, but not that much to force everyone to play random clanwars.


We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
wKtK
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#33 | [q]2012-10-31 00:40
Lithu wrote:
The old system... with the community like this, it'll be t3 and CX rushing ladders and then doing a CW against each other while RDS, GpW and CDF can just sit back and watch because they do not have enough time to play 20 ladders a day


Thats why i suggested handing out points on a logarithmic scale emo
Keep rewarding rushing, only reward it less.


[url=http://wekateka.com/childhood]Nostalgia warning, well, at least if you're one of those ppl...[/url]
SirEmentaler
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#34 | [q]2012-10-31 07:40
Lithium wrote:
The old system... with the community like this, it'll be t3 and CX rushing ladders and then doing a CW against each other while RDS, GpW and CDF can just sit back and watch because they do not have enough time to play 20 ladders a day/train to challenge t3/CX.

Oh, okay. I take it you want to improve the system to make it possible to win a season without training, winning ladders and CWs. Good idea.
Toni
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#35 | [q]2012-10-31 10:15
^ that. And now somebody will come and tell 'I don't have that much time to play etc'. If you don't have time you can't win, that's clear. It's better probably like this: you play a lot - more chances to win. You play little - less chance to win. The same is in football. If you're not standard in your team, you can't improve much.

The best is to force Clan Wars happen, but more rules to avoid cheating with not showing up etc.
cooba
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#36 | [q]2012-10-31 10:31
Grytolle wrote:
There is zero extra value in spontaneity.

Do you literally hate fun?

You keep pointing out that the previous system wasn't perfect but playoffs are not an improvement.


Jazz 2 Online
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Grytolle
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#37 | [q]2012-10-31 11:12
cooba wrote:
Grytolle wrote:
There is zero extra value in spontaneity.

Do you literally hate fun?

First of all, we have ladders for fun

cooba wrote:
You keep pointing out that the previous system wasn't perfect but playoffs are not an improvement.
I am of the opinion that they most definitely are an improvement. More clanwars are played thanks the play-off system: We rarely came close to 4 clanwars in one season with the old system. Last season it didn't seem to stifle interest in clanwars either. There were many challenges, though they weren't always accepted. One (of the ones?) that was (were? i really don't remember right now) was accepted but not played, because the two clans kept postponing their game until the playoffs came and they happened to have to face eachother there too.

Anyway, even if your premise would be true that spontaneity is important in having a fun clanwar, the difference in spontaneity is not much to speak of in this case. Clanwars are almost always planned way ahead in time, precisely because people do not in fact particularly value spontaneity when it comes to clanwars, but even if they did, nothing stops them from playing one on short notice under the current system.

Furthermore (and this is rather a response to Toni than to you), forcing people to play a clanwar that they don't want to play, doesn't really rhyme well with promoting fun. It's the spontaneity of one clan wanting something the other does not.

The dilemma of the ladder is the same as it was a year ago. We want to promote activity, all the while maintaining some notion that whoever wins the ladder is, if not the best clan, at the very least one of the best. As long as many of the best players are not interested in playing very actively, it is impossible to fullfill the second requirement at all if our full attention is given to the second one. One might even argue that if skilled semi-active players have no chance, and therefore see no reason to participate at all, activity will eventually fall, since the ladder doesn't prove anything anyway. But I might be wrong: Maybe watching their point count rise from 1-200 is enough reason for most people to invest a lot of their time. But in that case, there will be little incentive to play clanwars at all, since it's more effective to just rush easy ladders (only the point count matters, after all).

So anyway, I don't have much hope that we will be able to make significant improvements to the ladder system, but if someone wants to make an elaborate, preferably analytical proposal, I'm definitely interested, but it has to go further than just a dubious "play-offs are the antithesis of fun" or "force everyone to play clanwars!" without much regard for the consequences.

The mappool, on the other hand, is an area with much more potential for improvement in terms of promoting fun (atleast to some people, playing a lot of maps seems to be an important factor in achieving fun), so please focus more on that
(This post has been helpful to 1 of the forumers.)
Vegito
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#38 | [q]2012-10-31 11:25
Keep the play offs but award the clan that won the season more? Do that for the 2nd and 3rd clan as well making it more interesting to finish higher during the regular season?

For example, the clan that won the regular season gets to pick the map in the play offs and gets to have, say, 3 veto's. The clan that came in 4th facing the clan that won the season may only get to pick the map out of a (small) set mappool and may not veto any levels.

Set more or less similar rules for the 2nd and 3rd clan (but make them less rewarding/less bad cause they aren't 2nd or 3rd).
This way getting the first place is more rewarding cause you get to decide over a lot more stuff making it easier to win the play offs as well. It should, perhaps, get more clans to challenge whoever is first simply cause of the advantages of having a higher rank while you still have the play offs in the end.
Grytolle
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JJnet admin
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#39 | [q]2012-10-31 11:30
For reference: last season's play-off rules that did what Vegito proposes in a rather moderate way. It is indeed a pricinple that could be taken further. One might even specifically reward clans for having played clanwars during the season, for example by letting them start with one extra point per won clanwar.

Quote:
This season will be settled by a simple knock-out structure. Clan #1 will face clan #4, and clan #2 clan #3 in immediate semi-finals. After that a grand finale and a game for third place will be played.

That means that each of the four participating clans will get to play two clanwars. The play-offs will start as soon as the off-season games have been dealt with and it is expected to last two to three weeks: each clan will play one game every week.

When the season has been settled, JJnet will take a one-month break.

Special rules
There are a couple of advantages to having a better ranking than your opponent:
1) the lower ranked clan will be counted as the challenger, whose opponent as you know gets to pick the map order
2) you get to play against a supposedly weaker team in the semi-finals.
Lithium
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#40 | [q]2012-10-31 11:34
SirEmentaler wrote:
Oh, okay. I take it you want to improve the system to make it possible to win a season without training, winning ladders and CWs. Good idea.


Where in the Nine Hells did I say that? Please, don't take my words out of context. I pointed out the old system would suck with the current mentality (CX and t3 rushing ladders and challenging each other after), not that it's bad in any case. I still prefer the playoffs system, though it would be better with the changes Vegito and Gry suggested.


We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
cooba
[si]
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JJnet user
Posts: 322
51
#41 | [q]2012-10-31 16:10
I wasted some time just to count:

Season II: 8 clanwars
Season III: 3 clanwars
Season IV: 4 clanwars
Season V: 4 clanwars (all playoffs)
Season VI: 0 so far emo

The positives are negligible and the negatives (aka the points raised by King and Rag that you haven't adressed) are fairly big.


Jazz 2 Online
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[GpW]Urbs
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#42 | [q]2012-10-31 16:25
Ya but you can't put all of it down to institutional arrangement, remember correlation does not causality make.
You should have accounted for the insane amount of activity in season 2 (return of GpW, the coming of t3, jj2wc, post jj2wc fervor etc) in which case season two can be easily seen as an outlier and therefore we should take it out of our analysis. After doing so, we see that the number of clanwars doesn't fluctuate all that much and seems to be rather steady in time. Again, we cannot be sure, because we haven't accounted for other factors.

In order for the above analysis to stick you should have plotted it against the average monthly bunny population, at the least.
Ideally we would also be able to record their propensity towards warfare, because we cannot be sure it is a variable that is stable in time.
A younger community is usually also more prone to violence.
(This post has been helpful to 1 of the forumers.)
cooba
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#43 | [q]2012-10-31 16:28
[GpW]Urbs wrote:
You should have accounted for the insane amount of activity in season 2 (return of GpW, the coming of t3, jj2wc, post jj2wc fervor etc) in which case season two can be easily seen as an outlier and therefore we should take it out of our analysis.

Fair enough, but even after that, my point that playoffs didn't fix anything and only made the ladder boring, still stands.


Jazz 2 Online
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Lithium
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#44 | [q]2012-10-31 16:32
The ladder is kinda boring like this, but I think CX and t3 winning all the future seasons would be even more boring, don't you think so? Those are the clans with the most active crew and the system without playoffs rewards such activity, right?

The best solution would be something in between, a system that could reward both warteam skill and activity. wKtK, Gry and Veg have some good ideas there, better than just "omg kill playoffs".


We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
MasterSven
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Posts: 397
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#45 | [q]2012-10-31 16:35
Why did our CW challenge disapear? emo
Lithium
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#46 | [q]2012-10-31 16:35
MasterSven wrote:
Why did our CW challenge disapear? emo


Did you try to change the date? xd


We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
[GpW]Urbs
[GpW]
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#47 | [q]2012-10-31 16:50
I agree, there seems to be an inherent underlying demand for clanwars that no institutional arrangement can fix!emo

Also, the cw got cancelled by one partyemo
cooba
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#48 | [q]2012-10-31 17:06
Lithium wrote:
The ladder is kinda boring like this, but I think CX and t3 winning all the future seasons would be even more boring, don't you think so? Those are the clans with the most active crew and the system without playoffs rewards such activity, right?

1. In the last season, which had playoffs, t3 and CX still came 1st and 2nd.
2. I'm more than certain that in a system without playoffs, the other clans would be more willing to step their activity up.
3. Did you miss the ending of season 4 where t3 could have easily scored one more point and then win, but decided to wait for the clanwar, which they lost? Not everything is about "rushing".


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SirEmentaler
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#49 | [q]2012-10-31 18:03
Lithium wrote:
Where in the Nine Hells did I say that?

You said some clans do not have enough time to play many ladders and train for CWs. If your clan really can't outdo the others in either of the match types offered by the ladder, one based on activity and the other on skills, maybe you should consider the possibility it in fact shouldn't win a season.

Personally I recommend removing playoffs and adding the following rule: "Clans with 175 points and above don't earn points from regular matches", plus something to ensure a few of the lower-ranked clans can't refuse CW challenges of higher-ranked ones.

While I'm on I can also mention that the only thing that implementing wKtK's idea would do is decrease point differences between clans but, in present conditions, never actually change their position in the ranking (unless they start playing CWs or are inactive for a whole week but that's another subject). It would also be very unfriendly to clans founded in mid-season.
MasterSven
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#50 | [q]2012-10-31 18:04
Challenge #2 sent
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