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     Season 7 proposals | [q] 2012-10-27 12:56
cooba
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1. Ditch the playoffs, they make for a boring season without clanwars. The last legit clanwar was this: http://jazzjackrabbit.net/index.php?league=1&season=1&op=descr&id=2092

2. Do something to the mappool that isn't just a vote.

ty for listening

[img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m43740Utwq1ruqk3oo1_400.jpg[/img]


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King
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#51 | [q]2012-10-31 20:32
[img]http://i50.tinypic.com/71r32a.jpg[/img]

Okay lets start from the top

Grytolle wrote:
If you want more clanwars, just challenge people three times? The reason that there aren't any clanwars is that no one is very interested...


I thought i've alrdy said that playoffs are a bunch of cw's therefore noone bothers, i dont understand why do you wanna bother with the mappool instead. Playoffs alone are not a bad idea but it makes the ladder system incredibly boring as noone even bothers to try(as i have explained already)

Lithium wrote:
The old system... with the community like this, it'll be t3 and CX rushing ladders and then doing a CW against each other while RDS, GpW and CDF can just sit back and watch because they do not have enough time to play 20 ladders a day/train to challenge t3/CX. Still, it's better than radical changes - I would like to see clanwars too, but not that much to force everyone to play random clanwars.


Lol how cute that u want the system to be made in a kind of way that ppl who do not play at all should win. As i have said if u find us to be too active u do not, i repeat, YOU DO NOT have to beat us (cx,t3 or whatever ) by rushing more ladders, just challenge us for a cw, and if u cant beat us well then we'd win the playoffs as well. I mean what the hell do u want? an award for "i cant do it!"?

Vegito wrote:
Keep the play offs but award the clan that won the season more? Do that for the 2nd and 3rd clan as well making it more interesting to finish higher during the regular season?

For example, the clan that won the regular season gets to pick the map in the play offs and gets to have, say, 3 veto's. The clan that came in 4th facing the clan that won the season may only get to pick the map out of a (small) set mappool and may not veto any levels.

Set more or less similar rules for the 2nd and 3rd clan (but make them less rewarding/less bad cause they aren't 2nd or 3rd).
This way getting the first place is more rewarding cause you get to decide over a lot more stuff making it easier to win the play offs as well. It should, perhaps, get more clans to challenge whoever is first simply cause of the advantages of having a higher rank while you still have the play offs in the end.


There is some improvement there but "having advantages" is not the same as actually "winning the season" so the old system would have much more enthusiasm for reaching the 1st place.

Most of you keep saying how the "old system" was about rushhing ladders but it isnt. You're just lazy fat asses who just want to make up rules to make it easier for yourselves to win the season. As i have said before You can just challenge people who are overly active for a cw and make them lose points, that would make the ladder lot less boring. This isnt about the activity at all, its about how the ladder system is boring. The only 4 interesting matches are those playoffs. That was what cooba was trying to say "1. Ditch the playoffs, they make for a boring season without clanwars." Ladder isnt competitive whats so ever until it reaches the playoffs. This system tho would work if there were like 150 clans so reaching top4 would be a lot harder. Veg's idea of restricting some of maps for the lower ranked clans in the top4 is not a bad idea but its really not the same. Atleast people would try, however, at some point someone would say "oh screw this il just beat them in the playoffs with any map i get", if for example t3 is rushing pts like crazy and is in lead of others by like 70 pts. i mean isnt it easier to just challenge them, win a lot of points and make them lose a lot? If you cant beat them then they deserved a 1st place to begin with which means they would automatically win the play-offs.


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Lithium
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#52 | [q]2012-10-31 20:55
King wrote:
i dont understand why do you wanna bother with the mappool instead


Because screw the new levelmakers, the current maps are so cool and totally not overplayed?

King wrote:
Playoffs alone are not a bad idea but it makes the ladder system incredibly boring as noone even bothers to try(as i have explained already)


And as I said already, t3 vs CX all over would make the season quite boring as well (other clans participate in the playoffs too at least).

King wrote:
Lol how cute that u want the system to be made in a kind of way that ppl who do not play at all should win.


First, define "play". Spamming everyone for a ladder and then playing 20 matches a day, or strategically playing one or two ladders a day? You guys do not seem to see the difference.

Second, how would anyone who "does not play at all" win with the current system? True, it is much easier for less active teams like GpW and RDS to get a chance to face t3/CX, but they still do play - they just do not happen to be rushing ladders. If such a team loses against you in the playoffs - I consider it a fair deal, but losing because they do not have dozens of members who rush ladders every day? Not quite.

You can't deny that it would be much easier for a rusher team like you to win a regular season, even if someone does challenge you and win, than bother with three more clans you're bound to play against.


We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
cooba
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#53 | [q]2012-10-31 21:08
Quote:
Because screw the new levelmakers, the current maps are so cool and totally not overplayed?

Hyperbole, he obviously meant Grytolle trying to shut everyone up with his "diplomacy".

Quote:
Spamming everyone for a ladder and then playing 20 matches a day, or strategically playing one or two ladders a day? You guys do not seem to see the difference.

How about you explain why playing a lot of games (nice exaggeration, but I know for a fact we've never played more than 10-11 a day) is bad in a system built to reward player activity?

Quote:
You can't deny that it would be much easier for a rusher team like you to win a regular season, even if someone does challenge you and win, than bother with three more clans you're bound to play against.

Complete and utter horseshit, read my previous post.


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Ragnarok
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#54 | [q]2012-10-31 21:15
When was the last time my clan or t3 played 3 ladders in the same day?
Lithium
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#55 | [q]2012-10-31 21:22
cooba wrote:
Hyperbole, he obviously meant Grytolle trying to shut everyone up with his "diplomacy".


Ah well, I consider the mappool vote quite important.

cooba wrote:
How about you explain why playing a lot of games (nice exaggeration, but I know for a fact we've never played more than 10-11 a day) is bad in a system built to reward player activity?


I was indeed exaggerating. Now, was the system built to reward such kind of activity? An early newspost praised people for playing a ladder match every two days. I'm also pretty sure the activity the system rewards should be the activity of all clans, not just two clans laddering each other every day.

Ragnarok wrote:
When was the last time my clan or t3 played 3 ladders in the same day?


You're right, not recently, but it occurred a lot in the past and that's what earned you at least 70 of those 130 points, right?



We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
cooba
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#56 | [q]2012-10-31 21:31
Lithium wrote:
You're right, not recently, but it occurred a lot in the past and that's what earned you at least 70 of those 130 points, right?

So fucking what?


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Lithium
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#57 | [q]2012-10-31 21:36
It doesn't matter here at all - it was a reply to Ragnarok who again, replied to my post, probably trying to say CX doesn't rush ladders.


We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
SirEmentaler
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#58 | [q]2012-10-31 21:57
Statistics time!
Ladders played during this season:
-t3>: 176
RDS: 175
CX: 119
Most ladders played on the same day in this season:
-t3>: 9 (2012-09-13, 2012-09-10)
RDS: 8 (2012-09-16, 2012-09-01, 2012-08-15, 2012-08-12)
CX: 8 (2012-09-10)

@down: nothing besides your usage of "CX and t3" being hypocritical.
Lithium
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#59 | [q]2012-10-31 22:06
And that proves what?


We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
[GpW]Urbs
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#60 | [q]2012-10-31 22:13
No offense, but having played in both systems I can't say it makes any difference.

If we were active we'd use the 3 cw rule and force people to cw us. Why? Because bashing on others is nice.
But we're not, so we don't do it. Why? because getting bashed suxx.

You're always enthusiastic about winning, doesn't matter which system you're in. In the last one you could have rushed it. Fine t3 didn't but we sure wanted to vs VS. Again we were inactive and we couldn't. But had we been actiye =easy. Play the cw after you've already won the season, to get bragging rights. If you lose you say it didn't matter and you didn't take it seriously.

So let's not romanticize this old system we had.
Both of them suck as far as cw's are concerned tho.

The only one that ever got jj2 clanwaring was reptile.

Ok mby I'm being cynical, but really, getting people to do clanwars is like getting capitalists to invest during a crisis.

The state can start projects, the interest rate can be low, but until those guys smell money, they won't invest no matter what.

And I'm guessing they(and by they I mean us) aren't smelling much of anything.

Ofc if you do cw's for fun, as most of you seem to claim, then I guess you just don't like having funemo
Vegito
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#61 | [q]2012-10-31 22:16
King wrote:


Okay lets start from the top

Quote:
If you want more clanwars, just challenge people three times? The reason that there aren't any clanwars is that no one is very interested...


I thought i've alrdy said that playoffs are a bunch of cw's therefore noone bothers, i dont understand why do you wanna bother with the mappool instead. Playoffs alone are not a bad idea but it makes the ladder system incredibly boring as noone even bothers to try(as i have explained already)

Quote:
The old system... with the community like this, it'll be t3 and CX rushing ladders and then doing a CW against each other while RDS, GpW and CDF can just sit back and watch because they do not have enough time to play 20 ladders a day/train to challenge t3/CX. Still, it's better than radical changes - I would like to see clanwars too, but not that much to force everyone to play random clanwars.


Lol how cute that u want the system to be made in a kind of way that ppl who do not play at all should win. As i have said if u find us to be too active u do not, i repeat, YOU DO NOT have to beat us (cx,t3 or whatever ) by rushing more ladders, just challenge us for a cw, and if u cant beat us well then we'd win the playoffs as well. I mean what the hell do u want? an award for "i cant do it!"?

Quote:
Keep the play offs but award the clan that won the season more? Do that for the 2nd and 3rd clan as well making it more interesting to finish higher during the regular season?

For example, the clan that won the regular season gets to pick the map in the play offs and gets to have, say, 3 veto's. The clan that came in 4th facing the clan that won the season may only get to pick the map out of a (small) set mappool and may not veto any levels.

Set more or less similar rules for the 2nd and 3rd clan (but make them less rewarding/less bad cause they aren't 2nd or 3rd).
This way getting the first place is more rewarding cause you get to decide over a lot more stuff making it easier to win the play offs as well. It should, perhaps, get more clans to challenge whoever is first simply cause of the advantages of having a higher rank while you still have the play offs in the end.


There is some improvement there but "having advantages" is not the same as actually "winning the season" so the old system would have much more enthusiasm for reaching the 1st place.

Most of you keep saying how the "old system" was about rushhing ladders but it isnt. You're just lazy fat asses who just want to make up rules to make it easier for yourselves to win the season. As i have said before You can just challenge people who are overly active for a cw and make them lose points, that would make the ladder lot less boring. This isnt about the activity at all, its about how the ladder system is boring. The only 4 interesting matches are those playoffs. That was what cooba was trying to say "1. Ditch the playoffs, they make for a boring season without clanwars." Ladder isnt competitive whats so ever until it reaches the playoffs. This system tho would work if there were like 150 clans so reaching top4 would be a lot harder. Veg's idea of restricting some of maps for the lower ranked clans in the top4 is not a bad idea but its really not the same. Atleast people would try, however, at some point someone would say "oh screw this il just beat them in the playoffs with any map i get", if for example t3 is rushing pts like crazy and is in lead of others by like 70 pts. i mean isnt it easier to just challenge them, win a lot of points and make them lose a lot? If you cant beat them then they deserved a 1st place to begin with which means they would automatically win the play-offs.


First of all, what I said was just a random idea but no serious proposals. You can make the first place during a regular season as attractive as you want. The point about rushing ladders is hardly valid. It's up to the players to decide how much they play (and win emo ). RDS was VERY active at the start like SE pointed out, until Lahm left and Iustyn stopped playing basically. We were leading and then we stopped being active basically. I dunno why stopping the playoffs would get us more clanwars. More interesting? Perhaps, but I doubt it'll result in higher activity/more clanwars by default. There won't be much/any difference imo.
A clan must decide how serious they want to take the ladder/playoffs by themselves. Only that will change the amount of clanwars I am guessing.

Whatever anyway, I am fine with either way of ending the ladder. (And I find it somewhat funny it appears to be Cx wanting X and RDS wanting Y, the members of both clans clashing in this thread emo.)

So basically all of Urbs points whom happened to post while I was writing emo
Lithium
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#62 | [q]2012-10-31 22:19
SirEmentaler wrote:
Statistics time!
Ladders played during this season:
-t3>: 176
RDS: 175
CX: 119
Most ladders played on the same day in this season:
-t3>: 9 (2012-09-13, 2012-09-10)
RDS: 8 (2012-09-16, 2012-09-01, 2012-08-15, 2012-08-12)
CX: 8 (2012-09-10)

@down: nothing besides your usage of "CX and t3" being hypocritical.


Note that you're talking about this season only here - nothing to rush, really. Also I can bet most of the RDS ladders you mentioned here were played by Iustyn and Lahm on Gauntlet - their laddering behavior does not represent my opinion and the behavior of the alliance team as a whole.


We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
King
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#63 | [q]2012-10-31 22:35

Lithium wrote:
Quote:
Playoffs alone are not a bad idea but it makes the ladder system incredibly boring as noone even bothers to try(as i have explained already)


And as I said already, t3 vs CX all over would make the season quite boring as well (other clans participate in the playoffs too at least).


I dont belive this, its like you're blind. Seriously? i must have written it 5-6 times. You do not have to rush ladders against cx/t3, challenge them for a cw, and if u cant win that either, then u had no chance to begin with lol. If u think Cx and t3 are making ladder boring then do something about it. Play and train. Why should our "hardwork" (lets exaggerate then) go to waste just becuz "you dont play as much as we do" (even tho we barely play aswell lately).

In my previous post i tried to say that old system would be better becauz it would inspire people to go for the 1st place, but if noone (other than Cx and t3 apparently) is not eve trying due to inactivity then yes veg and urbs are right, it makes no difference.





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Lithium
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#64 | [q]2012-10-31 22:44
Note: Double quotes won't work if there's a name included in the inner quote, so make sure you change it. I fixed yours.

Arguing about this makes no sense, everyone supports a different viewpoint anyway. So let's just leave it up to the admins to decide what system is the best and instead focus on the new mappool vote. I will lock this now, contact me or Grytolle if you have something smart to add, make a new thread or use an existing one for mappool discussion.


We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
wKtK
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#65 | [q]2012-11-01 00:20
Lithium wrote:
Double quotes won't work if there's a name included in the inner quote, so make sure you change it. I fixed yours.

Actually it works if the 2 quotes are different, i.e 1 has a name, the other hasn't. I will fix this soon, only it seems the current approach isn't really suited for nested tags...

Edit: Nested quotes work now, rejoice!



[url=http://wekateka.com/childhood]Nostalgia warning, well, at least if you're one of those ppl...[/url]
(This post has been helpful to 1 of the forumers.)
i:m
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#66 | [q]2012-11-01 19:33
again im opening thread because
1. i see no reason to close it (closing it only because someone disagreed with lithium is kinda weird)
2. i find this discussion interesting
3. its not end of talk yet
4. everyone has right to share his own opinion with rest of community
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#67 | [q]2012-11-01 19:51
btw about the 7th season; my proposition is to make the ladder depended on ummm time, not on amount of points, i mean: no playoffs, just ladders and cws if someone wants, no point limit. for example every season takes half a year, during this time every clan can play as many games as they want to, so there is no 'rushing ladders' problem anymore.
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#68 | [q]2012-11-01 19:52
OK moti, let's keep it open.

However, we will have no more discussion about who spams ladders the most. The discussion was messy enough before that all derailed.

Cooba, I've been reading through yours and king's (and rag's, though it was basically free of content), searching for those points you mention, but they must either be absent or too implicit for me to catch them. I'll be glad to take them into consideration once they've become clear to me. Feel free to address the ones I made too instead of accusing me of not addressing others'.

In the meantime: I seriously think the lack of clanwars is to be explained as lack of interest on the part of the warteams in the major clans. I can only speak for my own clan, but if we don't feel like playing any clanwar, we won't play any clanwar, no matter the system. A clanwar, in our opinion, should be a well-prepared game and if we can't find the will or time to play a game like that, we won't, even if it means opting out of the play-offs (or letting aEs play alone), or taking -50 points.

Urbs has a good point that that one season was rather exceptional, with a lot of activity boosts caused by returning players. But there's also the time factor. Seasons have tended to become shorter and shorter.

Ok, hf discussing
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#69 | [q]2012-11-01 19:54
i:m wrote:
btw about the 7th season; my proposition is to make the ladder depended on ummm time, not on amount of points, i mean: no playoffs, just ladders and cws if someone wants, no point limit. for example every season takes half a year, during this time every clan can play as many games as they want to, so there is no 'rushing ladders' problem anymore.

Wouldn't people just be even more incentivized to rush ladders? If there are no max points, it makes sense to just keep rushing indefinitely to make sure that you win
Lithium
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#70 | [q]2012-11-01 19:57
Indeed. And what of the new clans? I don't think it would be fair for a new clan to start out with 0 points while the rest have around 200 or something.

Also:

i:m wrote:
again im opening thread because
1. i see no reason to close it (closing it only because someone disagreed with lithium is kinda weird)

I would have closed it earlier if that was the reason emo

I would have also replied to your other points, but Grytolle's post did it instead. hf


We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
King
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#71 | [q]2012-11-01 20:37
what points lol


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i:m
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#72 | [q]2012-11-01 20:38
new clans are new clans. its their bussiness if they have 0 points of 213 (if they make the clan in the middle of ladder season or earlier or later). also about amount of points - its every clans individual bussiness if and how they gain them and how much. one clan can play 15 ladders per day and gain 15 (or 30 w/e) points, one can regularly challenge leading clans for clanwars. i guess there isnt any perfect solution for this case overall, in every option/proposition there is something ridiculous or unfair.
i personally dislike playoffs system, imo it makes ladder boring and sometimes even nonsensical.
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#73 | [q]2012-11-01 20:43
King wrote:
what points lol


In lack of better terms, a part of something; moti's post has 4 points there.

i:m wrote:
new clans are new clans. its their bussiness if they have 0 points of 213 (if they make the clan in the middle of ladder season or earlier or later). also about amount of points - its every clans individual bussiness if and how they gain them and how much. one clan can play 15 ladders per day and gain 15 (or 30 w/e) points, one can regularly challenge leading clans for clanwars. i guess there isnt any perfect solution for this case overall, in every option/proposition there is something ridiculous or unfair.
i personally dislike playoffs system, imo it makes ladder boring and sometimes even nonsensical.


Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't see a part of your previous post that says the season would have a timelimit. Then I guess you're right.


We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
i:m
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#74 | [q]2012-11-01 20:51
Quote:
what points lol
Quote:


In lack of better terms, a part of something; moti's post has 4 points there.


HAHAHAHAHHAhahhahaha emo emo

edit: DAMNNIT i cant deal with these quote commands
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#75 | [q]2012-11-01 20:53
The definition should be correct emo

King probably thought of 2 POINTS 2 POINTS emo


We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
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