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     Admins and democracy! | [q]2011-07-11 16:24
Lithium
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Your ideas about new/old admins,voting systems and kick list go here.


I'm a jj.net/forum moderator - feel free to contact me if you have issues with the site or the forum.
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We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
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and tore the world asunder.
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[GpW]Urbs
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#76 | [q]2011-07-14 12:52
I wouldn't want to have anything to do with the people running this community Gry. Never have, never will.
And although I must applaud you for unmasking me (finallyemo), that doesn't change anything as far as I'm concerned.

And I'm also glad you guys finally admit why this community was formed in the first place: to counter J2O.
Although jjnet most definitely serves a purpose (and J2O way less as time goes on), we see the 1st impulse was one of certain players who got their reputations smirched (rightfully so, and by yours trully I might add) on J2O, moving on to form their own community where they would be kings.

And they are that.
And they expect mistakes to be forgiven and forgoten. Tell that to the indians my friend. Every elite in the history of the world has always used the same argument: we're not perfect, and we might have gotten here by unfair means, but now you're stuck with us, let's make the best of it. In other words, let's take the status quo as given and let's focus on the future. Forget the past. I never will, I'm sorry.

I completely realize that democracy has its limits, and I am sorry that this thread bears the name: admins and democracy.
The reason I evoked democracy in the other topic was because I really disliked the rhetoric of some people and because I noticed it wasn't for the first time. If a phenomenon persists then it's most likely not just a fluke, hence my rage. But I would agree with most of your objections to democracy which you've mentioned above.

If I joined you guys it would look like as if everything is OK, they let him in, they let Urbs in - despite the fact he was being so mean to them with his unfair criticism. Ok maybe I'm being unfair again. But to be unfair to those who ache for power isn't really being unfair. And no, I don't ache for it, all I wanted to do was make a small resurgence of a clan which meant so much to me and I was ever so sad that nobody else had done it instead of me. As far as things stand ATM, I'm getting tired of my online life and would most likely not accept the post out of pure lazyness. Which again you might say makes me look like an ass, since if I'm not willing to take up the mantle I should just stfu.
But let's face it, it's not like being an admin is such a big burden. We see lots of them who are very inactive and it's all good. But that's not how I do stuff.

The kick after JJ2WC could have been avoided by using mute. But I guess everybody becomes trigger happy when they get the chance. Also one of the reasons why I don't wish to have the option to wield admin powers - I might just find out that I'm not really a good guy after allemo
Thing is, once you go into politics - and make no mistake, this IS politics - you know you will do shit. Same way I knew that if start GpW, I will make unfair decisions, for which I do genuinely feel bad, but I would have done most of them all over again had I the chance.
A person can make decisions about what he will do in life. And going "into politics" is a conscious decision (as was the decision to create jjnet, as we've now seen publicly stated), ergo if you're an idividual who has at least an ounce of brainpower, you know what going into politics entails. So lets not kid ourselves, the moment you become an admin, you know you will do bad stuff (along with the good ofc). It's a decision. A conscious decision, and one where a conscious homo sapiens knows fully well the advantages of having such status. Don't try to tell me you're all a bunch of martyr's, beacuse you're far from it. The very seed which spawned this community was one of competitive power hungry spirit, talk of countervailing powers as much as you wish, that's a fact. Because you were personae non grata (unwelcomed persons) at jcf and j2o - and with good reasons - you went ahead and built jjnet.
And you wan't me to be part of your G-crew now? Ha, you got to be kidding me. And tell myself what? That I'm working for the common good? Come come now, we all know self-interest was just as important deciding factor as was your love for the community over which you preside and the "superstar" of which you have become (rightfully so, as you are indeed one of the best players ever to have graced the game).

So, if your decision to participate in it all was a conscious one, so too is my decision to not have anything to do with it.

And yes, overall you guys have been doing a decent enough job. I think the main problematic of this community is systemic, and by systemic I mean that it's simply too small. I would know how small systems behave, being from a country of just 2 million. Corruption is rampant, it's all about: Who knows who? In that sense the admins really are not to blame. Had Epic not been the assholes we all know them to be and had they provided good game support like some other studios (Blizzard still supports games like warcraft 2, which is at least 3-4 years older than jj2), there would be no need for Gry's, SJ's, Nerd's etc. We wouldnt' need to discuss this stuff, instead we'd just play the game.
Slayer wouldn't be viewed as such a big ass hole, cuz he wouldn't have been able to cheat in the first place.

If we take the view that larger systems aren't as important and that it's the individuals who matter, then I'm sorry to say I would not wish to cooperate with the current group of admins. I won't say I know their very nature, because I don't, in fact it's hard enough to analyze my own nature, much less analyzing somebody else's. But I can say that I disagree with some of the decisions they've made in the past. Actions tell the world who we are, and although I might be a major league asshole and a hypocrite to boot, there are some things I haven't done.

Besides, all of this would be purely hypothetical now anyway.

EDIT: Oh and I've always been distrustful of people who root for the Empire in Star Wars. And no, that isn't a joke.
[GpW]Urbs
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#77 | [q]2011-07-14 13:17
*w8's for gry to continue with the to and froemo*
Grytolle
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#78 | [q]2011-07-14 14:13
Quote:
Although jjnet most definitely serves a purpose (and J2O way less as time goes on), we see the 1st impulse was one of certain players who got their reputations smirched (rightfully so, and by yours trully I might add) on J2O, moving on to form their own community where they would be kings.

Come come now, we all know self-interest was just as important deciding factor as was your love for the community over which you preside and the "superstar" of which you have become (rightfully so, as you are indeed one of the best players ever to have graced the game).

Because you were personae non grata (unwelcomed persons) at jcf and j2o - and with good reasons - you went ahead and built jjnet.

DZ had only played JJ2 for like half a year when the site was built, and my own J2o reputation was just fine too, thank you very much. Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff?

We built JJ.net because J2o wouldn't do shit for the clan side of JJ2. They posted several newsposts a week about new levels and stuff, but they didn't even bother to announce the end of JJ2WC II without a lot of begging. As far as "counterweight" goes, we have consistently opted to not try and replace J2O: We never launched our download section. We don't have a picture section. We don't try to cater to level makers or single player players (single players?). This part-reason of Nimrod's is hardly even shared by me and DZ, and I didn't imply that it was in my previous post - yet you somehow made it out to be our main objective.

Quote:
And you wan't me to be part of your G-crew now? Ha, you got to be kidding me. And tell myself what? That I'm working for the common good?

No, I wanted it back when people raised the issue of wanting more admins - demanding one for GpW. Somehow it was perceived as a great injustice that a clan who had only existed (anew) for half a year wasn't represented yet. In either case, you were the only GpW-member we all felt we could see suited for the job. Ron still needed to prove himself (which he is by the way well on his way of doing in my eyes, doing a good job on the forum and with his tournament projects).

And yes, for the common good. I have no idea why you refuse to believe in that. You think I made all the JJ2+ stuff for (mainly) personal gain too? You think I made Chiyu kick members from CC when we were hogging half of the clan scene for (mainly) personal gain? If you honestly believe that DanZeal and I were cynical enough to set out to build this site with the main purpose of being "Kings of JJ2", instead of - and I can't really accept this claim without some back-up facts either - starting the site with the best intentions, but made some mistakes along the way... Then I honestly don't want anything more to do with you.

Quote:
And they expect mistakes to be forgiven and forgoten.

No, I expect resolved matters to be just that: resolved, or atleast not brought up in only vaguely related discussions every time you decide to open your mouth.

Quote:
But I can say that I disagree with some of the decisions they've made in the past.
Then maybe you can say what those JJnet decisions were instead? Feel free to point out how the situations should have been handled. Of course, it's always easy to be wise after the fact, but that's ok.

Quote:
If I joined you guys it would look like as if everything is OK, they let him in, they let Urbs in - despite the fact he was being so mean to them with his unfair criticism.
No, it would look like you actually wanted to make changes. Of course, it might start looking bad for you if things didn't improve, but you could easily tackle that situation with a good old rage-quit.

Quote:
Ok maybe I'm being unfair again. But to be unfair to those who ache for power isn't really being unfair.

You realize of course that this argument logically applies to people who aren't yet admins or trustees, but want to be, rather than to the people already in power?

Quote:
As far as things stand ATM, I'm getting tired of my online life and would most likely not accept the post out of pure lazyness. Which again you might say makes me look like an ass, since if I'm not willing to take up the mantle I should just stfu.

Nah, you don't need to pick any mantle up - people knowing that you're not willing to is enough. As it is now, you haven't made a single reply to the actual suggestions for improvement. You don't even complain about anything substantial. Half of your examples are off-topic, the other half aren't accompanied by any conclusions, and the rest of your posts are just ad hominem, purposeful lies or misconceptions, I don't honestly know which, but I should hope that it's purely the latter. Even SR was of more use than you: he atleast sometimes came with concrete ideas, and his flaming was more entertaining than it was hurtful. Right now, you only serve to pollute what could be a fruitful discussion. I'm not gonna block you from posting or anything of course, because you're well within the rules of the site (another reason to build the site by the way: more lenient rules about flaming), but if you want to take part in the discussion, please do it in a more constructive way.

Edit: This doesn't apply to the rest of the "complainers" here: Ron, Kimo and a few others. In your posts it is obvious that you actually have some ideas and a genuine will to improve things, which I very much appreciate, eventhough I can't agree with you in all instances.
[GpW]Urbs
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#79 | [q]2011-07-14 14:47
Where do I come up with this stuff?
Kings of Fake - nuff said.

Won't comment any longer as we're currently chatting though.
Grytolle
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#80 | [q]2011-07-14 14:57
Quote:
Where do I come up with this stuff?
Kings of Fake - nuff said.

That might have still been a hot potato for someone who had been inactive since that time, but not for the people at the time. emo Not that we made any secret out of it either, for that matter
[GpW]Urbs
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#81 | [q]2011-07-14 17:36
I didn't say you did, but you seem to brush it off as if it were a laughing matter. And you always have. And then you wonder why I might not be too fond to cooperate with you.

I'll use another unfair example (because all real world examples seem to be unfair or exaggerated), but I guess if I were to say that the US wouldn't be the country it is today without slaughtering the native americans, you would say to me: old news. It's never old news. Nor is cheating. Our actions define us, and I don't see why I should be a good christian to forgive and forget. Even if I won't bring it up (OK, too late now), I'll always remember it.


Agreed one has to be pragmatical about these things, but I tend to believe the world today is far too forgetful. You're acting as if it had happened in a different lifetime, but it only happened, like what is it, 6 years ago? How many clips of politicians do you see on the Daily Show which go back to that time period? A lot. Granted you might argue that internet time is somehow different than real life time, which seeing as how time perception is relative, would not be untrue.

And you say I have no advice to give, granted, I am wary of having too many rules, for I am of the conviction that people should know what's right without having to be explicitly told everytime what they can or can not do. So if we start listing behavioral rules for kicks and bans we might end up having a jj2 community which is far worse than what we have now. Formalism should not be the end goal. Now we have the benefits of a relatively free society, now with freedom as with power come responsibilities. We can have the best of all worlds. But I doubt any set of rules will help. If one has a flawed mentality there will always be a loophole, no amount of rules will change that.


I am, however, very wrong in equating Gry with Chiyu. It's like equating Urbs and Shadow. I would apologize for it, but ofc Gry is under no obligation to accept my apology as I've tarnished his name, for something he probably never orchestrated.

At least to my mind, it was rather interesting how RL, the outcasts of the mainstream community used the same measures as the outcasts of their day did to gain acceptance and respect. One might argue, however, that there are fundamental differences between using radars and between faking clans.

My arguments about not wanting to join the jjnet crew might not seem valid. They might seem petty, for it looks as though I can't forgive a person some minor transgression from a time that nobody here even remembers anymore.But don't you see, it wasn't a minor transgression. It was completely conscious and very well planned. It also lasted long enough so that one of the people involved could have blown the roof over the whole thing, yet no one did. And I am supposed to let that go?

And what's up with the argument: "Join us and let us fix things together or shut your yap." If that were the case, then all of the people who were against the vietnam war should have joine the US Army and change the institution "from within"? BS, once you're an insider you're and insider and will by definition not enact and revolutionary changes.

"Then be constructive in some other manner," you say. Like I've said, the response with more explicit rules might not be the best idea. The best of all worlds would be one where you guys would be "enlightened rulers", but as Stanley Kubrick once noted: "I know not where to find such a man."

My arguments therefore might not have been helpful because they were seen from the point of view of modern theory of law (i believe its called positivistic) as being just moralizing. But that's exactly what I'm proposing. For the admins to give it their best to be the best they can.
That's also one of the pragmatic reasons why I wouldn't take the job of ZD trustee even if it were offered: that would take a helluva lot of work if you did it right and proper.

And now you see why I might see something that happened 5 years ago as relevant when weighing whether or not to join the crew. From my point of view it makes sense.

But it is just my point of view, I've never hidden that fact, I hope.



Grytolle
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#82 | [q]2011-07-14 17:49
Fine. It makes sense that you don't want to work with me. But that situation still has no bearing on the reasoning behind starting this site, except that we didn't want one person controlling everything alone (JJ2WC under rep, who was very anti-CC at the time - the justification, if you will, for our actions back then).

If that's all, we're cool and the JJnet/ZD issues are being addressed.
[GpW]Urbs
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#83 | [q]2011-07-14 17:50
Ya and I really like the concurrent idea.

Was gonna mention the monopoly thing, but thought it pointless as I had no means of providing competition.
Vegito
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#84 | [q]2011-07-14 18:51
Man, I remember a discussion I had with JJB. It was something like I said a thing twice or thrice.. He called me a liar and would hit me down if he saw me irl for it. While in reality, I wasn't even lying although he simply wasn't logged in to see the third time. I think it was about unbanning.

Either way, Urbs, sadly I am way less aggressive but truely this makes no sense anymore.
As much as you liked what JJB said then - you're a HUGE HUGE HUGE hypocrite for doing the exact same now. Even worse in fact cause half of these points you consider facts, aren't verified and by a long shot no facts at all. Truely, I can hardly believe this. As JJB said to me then, you're turning things around in your favour while they're simply lies/unverified "facts" - they aren't "facts"
And no - don't ask me to go by all your points like previously, Gry already did so and it already took me roughly 2 hours to see what happened ever since I last posted.

(And yes, you referred to that situation with JJB just yesterday I think - now, I refer to it as well emo)
[GpW]Urbs
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#85 | [q]2011-07-14 19:05
Ofc I refered to it.
I won't go into a longer discussion either.

I just used that example to capture the mood of the organization (ZD's). I can see why I could be called a hypocrite for it, as for every wrongful kick and bann there have been probably at least 5 or 10 instances where banns were called for (or when both sides knew it was all a joke).

Anyway fair enough veg.
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#86 | [q]2011-07-14 19:09
Indeed, no worries I didn't get pissed off, it just got me tired to read all this emo.
I prefer constructive posts like earlier which I think I replied well on. That got totally ignored however and instead we get to .... this. This that hardly makes sense at all anymore and if not, is completely off-topic.

Also, I am not entirely sure what you mean with this part: "as for every wrongful kick and bann there have been probably at least 5 or 10 instances where banns were called for (or when both sides knew it was all a joke)."
[GpW]Urbs
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#87 | [q]2011-07-14 19:12
well most kicks are valid
some arent
and the 3rd category is kicks that get done 4 laughs
like: don't curse
or: stfu noob
where u know the person who kicked you was just messing with you
ofc if stuff like that goes out of hand, shit like this might happen (cuz the toni thing was just a joke as well as we've learned afterwards)
Vegito
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#88 | [q]2011-07-14 19:19
Yes, thats true. Sadly some things get out of hand at times, we're all humans after all.
9 out of 10 times things are fine, that 1 time it isn't, drama happens.

Either way, I guess we'll see where this is leading to. At least something constructive is happening now I guess. Clarify rules and more servers set up for duels.
If anything - I'd rather have 5000 rules now just like irl. Why? So that players cant complain anymore, I just go get jj.net and find rule 2521 c) where this and this is stated in. Yes, I am serious. Apparently there is a problem with a "free" community - why not make it the opposite then? Maybe that works, a rule for everything.
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#89 | [q]2011-07-14 19:22
Quote:
well most kicks are valid
some arent
and the 3rd category is kicks that get done 4 laughs
like: don't curse
or: stfu noob
where u know the person who kicked you was just messing with you
ofc if stuff like that goes out of hand, shit like this might happen (cuz the toni thing was just a joke as well as we've learned afterwards)

II we should avoid
III we should avoid because it's safer
Vegito
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#90 | [q]2011-07-14 19:23
Exactly what I am trying to avoid. III is just lame, whenever a player feels like it they'll use it against you. :p
[GpW]Urbs
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#91 | [q]2011-07-14 19:26
Ya Veg, I see your point. Cuz if you have it otherwise, there'll always be a bitchin Slovenian somewhereemo

More formally run communities do work. ofc But such communities are usually founded on the basis of a platform from the studio making the game itself. Like I said, no such luck here.

And ya, II should be avoided, III can be fun TBH and would hate to see it go, but there are good reasons why one shouldn't do it too often.
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#92 | [q]2011-07-14 19:44
Well, we can make III illegal - but if no one reports you, because they liked it so much: GG.
[GpW]Urbs
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#93 | [q]2011-07-14 19:46
ya i guess, to be on the safe side.
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#94 | [q]2011-07-14 19:47
I for one wish to see a thing change. Requesting a kick or ban for yourself? That's ok with me. Imo a rule should be added.

"If you request to get kicked or banned, the admin shall grant your wish however don't expect to get unbanned until after a server restart."

I find it too annoying how plenty of people keep asking for bans. If I do or dont ban that person requesting the ban depends on the situation. From now on however I shall have mo mercy. Request a ban? Ok! But don't whine if you're not unbanned within a min. I think the players should be more careful with such words as well.
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#95 | [q]2011-07-14 19:49
I suppose that will teach people not to request bans... :p

But post that in the right forum pls, veg
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#96 | [q]2011-07-14 19:50
And yea. Make it illegal however if noone reports you with a day, the kick or ban was valid. That should keep things safe and nobody will go backstabbing you anymore either months after. All in al some good suggestions/guidelines now.
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#97 | [q]2011-07-14 19:51
Can't now. Mobile phone emo
Vegito
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#98 | [q]2011-07-14 19:52
And indeed. They won't be requesting bans for themselves anymore then emo
[GpW]Urbs
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#99 | [q]2011-07-14 20:32
hehe sorry for the backstabbing vegemo
but i did feel for jjb that time, y know?
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#100 | [q]2011-07-15 00:58
*Claims the 100th post*

"Ehe]m we CCers are all a bit nuts you know. emo"
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