JJnet's forum

In most part I agree with you. Peace! :carrot:

I agree but getting it done is the hard part, im afraid.

no hope for JJ2 and no cake :(

Peace :carrot: The only thing that's stopping me from leaving JJ2 is my clan. I can't let CC down, especially during periods when the majority of the clan is inactive or semi-idle, then I can't refuse to play a game with fellow clanmates. Now that 3 people have recently left the clan I feel the need to be active as much as possible. Unfortunately as a Zeal admin I constantly have to deal with such drama and I can only say it's been getting worse during the past few months, I need to check chatlogs or ban/kick annoying people [b]a lot[/b] more often than before. The level of competitive play on JJ2 is constantly rising (e.g. tests with test manager on ZR), but the game is getting less and less fun :( Players constantly bother each other to play ladder matches, the majority of the active players is acting unfriendly, people don't mind arguing for hours about one single ladder match. And now everyone will agree with Toni's post but start another drama again in a month. And with players like me and Toni quitting JJ2 and leaving it to the new generation, JJ2 will keep being an unfriendly place. Maybe we should stay just to save the game? I played a ladder match today knowing our chances of winning were low, but I had fun and so did my clanmates. I wish others would think the same way. The ladder is like JDC, the most active clan (out of the best ones) wins in the end, and 2nd, 3rd place etc usually aren't remembered by people so why care about points so much? Just relax and have some fun, maybe try out some other gamemodes and not just CTF, I'm sure you will like some of them. Now let's all tell how we feel about this and hope it will make people reconsider what they do at JJ2. I would also like to thank a few people for contributing to peace on JJ2. King, who thinks problems with faking/cheating should be discussed between the involved parties and the admins only. It's nice that someone has enough faith to leave a whole conflict to the admins without feeling the need to comment on jj.net about it. Gry, who has always managed to stay in friendly relations with everyone on JJ2 and even gave SR a few second chances. Rag, a player who recently came back to JJ2 and still remembers the good old times, he has brought really nice people together in his clan and also tries to promote forgotten gamemodes, that gives me some hope about the future. Same thing about Urbs who revived GpW, clans consisting of new players need a nice, mature and experienced leader. Toni, who is doing his best to fight for peace, Iustyn, who referred to the first Pro Peace thread a couple of times before (but also loses his nerves at times, but I guess that's for good XD, btw his sister is hot), and our great moderator Moti who has prevented many conflicts. And of course people like Hordy, me or Rew who don't get into conflicts about anything because it's just a game. We should take an example from all these awesome players :)

I hope that JJ2 will get better over time; that's what prevents me from stopping.

Well perhaps honesty could help give peace a chance? i do admit im one of those ppl who can be a troublemaker as i am rather known for joining in to argues. But actually what i try to do is reduce the drama while ironicly i just magnify it. Well i do hope this thread will go into pozitive direction

Always consider, Toni and Anubis, that the average age in jj2 is very low. In those times where I was getting annoyed by people, I always thought about it and the way I myself behaved when I was at this age. I realised I was nothing different. So there is not much to do about this. However, when I see almost or even adult people at the same time doing the exact same bullying, insulting and just acting childish, I feel just sick. There either is not much intelligence in this, or else people "abuse" jj2 to show off their emotions they have to hide in real life, or just pretend to be the boss being allowed to do everything he wants. Sometimes I can behold people showing their most unliked manners and also psychological diseases, to exaggerate a bit, and that is narcissm and overdone self-pity. I do not exclude me from this at all – I was all the same because of my behavior. I would say I have eventually discovered that this never-ending story is harming me too much, may it be the unfriendly behavior or my own self-destruction. JJ2 accompanied me since 1998, also the first version. I always returned to it during those years, and it was about the only game which I really played for a long time. I was not able to play it online though (due to the lack of TSF; I had version 1.20) until early 2011. So I am no oldie at all. However, I don't see any importance in this anyway. There may be about a few (more or less active) oldies here, no more, i.e. MS, Gry, Veg, Rag, Rew, FS – and that's about it. The reasons for why all the others left are actually simple: at the first time, it simply is the very low way of behaving from most of the guys in the community, which I already talked about. On the other hand, it's what Toni said – this is just a game. People outgrow it. So do I. Of course there also are other sides, and I know some guys, superficially perceived as assclowns, who actually have a golden heart. Some others even just are nice and do not make themselves the main topic by acting weird. Those are the ones which held me back from leaving this entire thing. It seems as if the number of those is continuously decreasing though, or it may just be me. So take care guys, and grow up! I will do the latter as well for I really need it. Hell yes, I have showed that annoying part of me again by talking so much about myself. Standard proverb: "in real life, I am different. But it's really true." Make a meaning of it yourselves.

[quote]Always consider, Toni and Anubis, that the average age in jj2 is very low. In those times where I was getting annoyed by people, I always thought about it and the way I myself behaved when I was at this age. I realised I was nothing different. So there is not much to do about this.[/quote] THIS. Also, guys, sometimes just relativate a bit. Really, I don't show up at JJ2 if I'm not in the mood for random crap talk and other sorts of bullshit. If I am in the mood for such stuff... well, then I can play JJ2 right :D . And yes, some players are really annoying and deserve a ban for their behavior (at times), but I can count them on only one hand. Also it would help if the Zeal's server's password functions are overhauled and the !forcenext command is removed from ZR.

[b]Summary for Iustyn[/b] (Yeah, I've been around) * JJ2 is nicer now than a while back if you look at the overall picture * People have a right to be angry when things happen, but there should be civil discussion and reconciliation. * You have to trust people as much as possible, and otherwise just ignore them. * CDF did a bad thing and should be punished in proportion to their crime, keeping in mind the effects on the clan scene: remove a number of points. * If you find the younger kids annoying, try to make them feel welcome and appreciated, while correcting any bs that occurs. [b]long post[/b] To be honest, I think JJ2 is friendlier now than it was a while back. I don't see that much fighting going on, and when there is fighting it ends quite quickly. One side of it is to let things slide and not make a big deal out of them. The other side of it is to not make a big deal out of people making a big deal. You have to remember that some things are more personal to other people than they are to you. Trying to make people feel stupid for caring about their hobby doesn't help anyone. First things should be talked out in a civilized manner, then there can be reconciliation. Unfortunately part #1 doesn't always work out, which is why us admins sometimes prefer to just put the lid back on the pot of annoying and hope it subsides with time. The main problem at this time is obviously distrust, which has probably gotten worse yet now with the, albeit not that major, CDF affaire. The sad truth is that there is very little you can do about cheating at this time, but you have to remember that JJ2 has [i]always[/i] been like that - you just wasn't aware of it and conseauently didn't freak out about it all the time. Just play and have fun, and if you really have to, avoid playing vs. people you suspect of cheating or that you don't trust. The key to staying happy on JJ2 is to stick to games that have utility for you: personally I only play with CCers or a quite limited set of friends (yes that includes Bot1 and Bot2 <3) unless I'm bored, in which case I will go for a ZD game or two. As for CDF: People have a right to be angry at CDF for what they did, but they should put things in perspective and realize that the impact on CDF's reputation will be bigger than the impact on the victims was. CDF gained 3 ladder points in total by my count. To a certain extent, I can see where MS was coming from, when people had refused to play VS him out of some misplaced sense of fear. Nontheless it remains a crime, so CDF can expect to lose a couple of points within the coming days. It's obvious from the chatlogs that punishing the clan as a whole is in order, but as with any punishment there must be a sense of proportion, otherwise the punishment will incentivize further mischief instead of less. Furthermore, banning CDF or some individuals wouldn't be beneficial to any of us, as the number of opponent clans would decrease (by one, by my count!). Hey, you might wonder! What about [some SR clan]? That 1) wasn't the first offense by the clan as a whole or it's clan leader (whining a lot is not a crime) and 2) we had already exhausted other means (in part because we wanted them to keep active) and 3) we consider actual cheating to be worse than faking (which doesn't mean that faking isn't a crime to take seriously). As for people being young: Up to a certain that's quite a sad excuse. There's plenty of well-behaved children around. Then again, it's not all their fault either, because older players don't really take good care of them. It happens quite a lot that some young player asks me to train him, but I say no, because I'm too selfish to waste energy on someone who's not a clanmate, unless I'm in a particularly good mood. In my experience, most young adults become a lot more mature quickly if they end up in the right environment. Fawful was one of the most obnoxious noobs ever, but once we let him into CC, he became a well-respected community member within a few months. Then again, it doesn't always work out. It didn't seem to have much effect on Hakum, but then again, he was under a lot of outside pressure. Either way, if you want the young ones to be mature, then take them under your wing. It works more often than not. Edit: I used to be a better person in that respect: taking care of newcomers. I guess I've gotten a bit scarred by so many people leaving CC to join/form other clans...

Well said Gry. LOL at summary for Iustin:)))))) Kudos for the environment part as well. I've read an interesting chapter of a recent book by Jeremy Rifkin on the topic of environment and education and its effects on the younglings. In an African national park all the older elephants were taken away (to ZOO's or just to other parks, not sure) and only two young cubs remained. Now we all know the cliche about elephants being friendly giants who wouldn't hurt a fly, but these two nublet cubs acted in a completely opposite fashion. They roared around and acted much like the Paris youth did a couple of years ago, burning cars, destroying shops - ofc the two cubs didn't do it in an urban environment, instead they turned from tree huggers to tree destroyers:). The folks running the national park were bewildered, I mean sure you'd expect mischief like that from some other animals, but not from elephants - they're like the t3 of the animal community. Then one of them came to the idea, to bring back one of the elder elephants, which was rather revolutionary, cuz that would mean that not even a person, but even animals and their behaviour is largely dependent on the environment (of the social kind). So education, good habits, good behaviour are all things that need to be taught, they're not encrusted in our genes. This is pretty fascinating even from a wider point of view and is relevant for society as a whole not just for JJ2, because it basically means that if you come from a "bad family" the chances of you making something out of yourself are very slim indeed. Gry has definitely done his best in the past, training nublets not just in the art of pwning on, but also on being less nubish off the field of battle (cheezy i know:))). I think t3 is doing a really nice job with all of its members as well. The anarchy which is GpW isn't a good example of how a jj2 family should be run, I'm afraid. Often being far too point-oriented it means the failures of character are not adressed for practical and very cynical reasons. Which is not to say I haven't tried in the past - but you can hardly guide your flock by being an absentee elder, now can you?:) Hyping up the cheating aspect of the game really isn't helpful in my opinion. Fact is, I dare anybody to beat veg/faw/gry/chiyu even with a radar. Or Kenny/snz/urbs if we were still in form. Or cX and t3 alpha squads. Problem with any fear - fear of cheating being no exception - is that it destroys the bonds of fellowship that we all have with one another. Mischief should not be in the same category as intentional, deliberate and systemic cheating. In any competitive environment, however, you can always expect there to be tensions. While we shouldn't brush them off, we should also see them for what they are - almost a constant. Fretting and getting all dramatical over them can then consume us with anger and hate, which is a very sad way to lead our online lives. It's like roaring at the British skies and cursing their existence every time it rains. Hardly helpful and certainly not very rational. Appropriate punishment, which is what has already been indicated will be dished out, is also part of good parental guidance (indeed it is sometimes rather annoying that the same principles which hold for children aren't applied to some of the adults in our society as well). The wicked flee when none pursueth, but the righteous are as bold as a lion. Proverbs 28:1

Suddenly, an interesting thread. Thats what I get for waking up this late. First of all I feel the need to say that I've been experiencing these feelings too, and I know some other people in aEs said things in the same fashion. Though I'm not planning to ragequit on this community just yet, some of you might have noticed that I became a bit less active over the past few weeks. This is a bit because of school and stuff, but also because the community was getting into random fights a lot, and the number of cheaters and [s]evildoers[/s] 'nublets' I encountered was only rivaled by the number of people here complaining about them. Thinking about a solution for this, I must say I pretty much agree with Gry's post here. How often have I looked at yet another flamethread/cheat-rage and wished "Let the matureness of those threads and people increase...". And It would help if the more mature members of the community would try to guide some of the misbehavers to [s] the good side of the Force[/s] better behaviour and understanding, instead of leaving. I'm not trying to force someone to stay here, It's just sad that most of the members who realize how ridiculous all this flaming/cheating/distrust is and think about leaving, are the ones we really need in this community. I'll just keep working on my rewrite of JJ2, to provide a solution to all the cheats and bugs. This will however take atleast more than a year from now, because I'm busy with school and try to get a few hours a day for my own hobbies. I'll stick around this community atleast till I 'fixx0r teh jj2', be it 1 or another 11 years from now. So please, before you think of leaving, think "Are there some newbies/nublets who I can help?". CC already fixed some ppl into nice members of the community. Well, that was most I wanted to say. Rests one thing: [quote]Fact is, I dare anybody to beat veg/faw/gry/chiyu even with a radar.[/quote] While I'm no active cheater, I would like to try this, just for fun value :p ;) hahaha [size=18][color=lime]Peace![/color][/size] :carrot:

Check out the t3 vs RL game from jj2wc wktk. And they weren't even in good form back then.

Interesting thread and interesting posts, guys :) Let's start: [quote]Always consider, Toni and Anubis, that the average age in jj2 is very low. In those times where I was getting annoyed by people, I always thought about it and the way I myself behaved when I was at this age. I realised I was nothing different. So there is not much to do about this.[/quote] Exactly. I complain about random noobs who occasionally show up in ZD or ZR and annoy people, but then I remember myself when I started playing. I was the same, an immature kid who annoyed others. It's good ZD and ZR didn't exist back then :P [quote]The reasons for why all the others left are actually simple: at the first time, it simply is the very low way of behaving from most of the guys in the community, which I already talked about.[/quote] If you mean the oldies, they indeed leave because of that or they come back and troll people. Not helpful. I remember Urbs has influenced me a lot, it's good he didn't leave the game or stay just to troll newbies. Thank you Commander. :D About the rest, certain well-behaving people decide to leave because of the behavior of some players. Some aEs members do feel offended by the behavior of community members and certain CDF members as well, so it's not just the evildoer Ron (:p). While I do tend to rage over pointless stuff, sometimes they're being randomly mean to us. I say it here, let's stop it once and for all. I'm willing to forget all things that happened in the past and I want to give peace a chance. So, I apologize to you Laro once again. Let's leave the bad stuff behind us. But please, if we are going to respect you, respect us then. Don't troll us before the matches with you, don't taunt us after and don't bother my members. I don't want Glados to rage because MS tends to taunt him. If MS, Sue, Andrzej treat us with respect and you don't encourage them to bother us, I'm sure Glados, Sean and I will be more friendly to you, them and the entire CDF clan :) I'm still considering to drop the CW, but then, if we do decide to play, please, let it be a friendly game between our clans. No personal feelings and I'm sure both teams will be happy regardless of the outcome of the match. Have a cake! :cake: :* I would also like to ask the other community members to give me a chance. I think I'm (mostly) a nice guy, and if I stop raging too often and get involved in flamewars you'll probably get to see more of my good side :) Remember, if any of you need help on the forums, your proud [s]modulator[/s] moderator is here to help you! I'll also try to be nice and friendly and help people in-game too. Have a :carrot: and a :cake: and all hail [s]the Empire[/s] peace!

I think the 'war' between CDF and aes is actually something from the distant past. Nowadays it is being kept alive by misunderstandings. As far as I can see there is no hatred from CDF towards aes players. I think the cw would be a good oppurtunity to show that we can both play fair and with good behavior regardless the score. :tuptup:

[quote]I think the 'war' between CDF and aes is actually something from the distant past. Nowadays it is being kept alive by misunderstandings. As far as I can see there is no hatred from CDF towards aes players. I think the cw would be a good oppurtunity to show that we can both play fair and with good behavior regardless the score. [/quote] It's from the RA days, but taunting and fights on ladder matches keep it alive. CDF players do not seem to 'hate' our members, but they do random stuff and taunt us on ladders. Let's just stop it once and for all. As for the CW, it's kinda hard to play against a better opponent, but if we do play, we'll be friendly and yeah, let's show people we can play a serious match ;)

[quote]but they do random stuff and taunt us on ladders[/quote] I think this is from both sides, maybe some people don't realize they taunted when people start to taunt them. Anyway [quote]misunderstandings[/quote] [quote]As for the CW, it's kinda hard to play against a better opponent, but if we do play,[/quote] Hmm I think it shows of great courage if you do play, like we did against CC and Y in the past. And we are missing people too at that date, so who knows what will happen. ;)

I really like you for making this thread, as I agree with most things. this games community is sometimes really terrible, where you cant really trust anyone because if you do it, you will eventually be greatly dissapointed, and atleast to me, many players seem to be from outer space. It finally made me stop playing too. Only posting because I like someone making a proper thread where I can state this. there are exceptions with the community though, and I just want to say I really respect these people. pity the number doesnt reach over my both hands fingers. and yes, I know, I am myself an asshole too, I think. but in the end, compared to most people in this community I think I am atleast okay.

Uh, so I quickly compared posts in this thread to my own experiences and there was only one conclusion I was able to come to: people suddenly stop misbehaving when I enter a server and immediately start after I leave it.

you guys know how i am. do you know what i think of it all? i don't really care about it. nothing will change, maybe a little bit, but don't expect much. sometimes i don't feel like playing with some people who are annoying as f*ck. and i know that i'm annoying myself, but at least i can admit it without any problems. in my opinion there isn't any way to change the community. it has just become even more retarded than it used to be some years ago. /DL serious off

Long post, it's mostly what I myself felt/speaking from my own experiences and a part about the past. Feel free to read if you wish :) Whoever says past times were better: wrong. Any oldie should remember the 500000 fights between Anakin, Reptile and Thunder. Never mind everyone thinking JMan is a big cheater (we're talking about 9 years ago here!!) and the fights between newbie clans at clanwars which included now respectable players too. Call some names: Yasco, Squirrel, Chiyu, myself and whatever other names I forgot. JJ2 has always been like this I believe. The difference is there are ALWAYS serious matches now (ladders) instead of just JDCs and clanwars. Therefore there is always stress now instead of just during tournaments. The difference for myself is that my reputation changed from shit to normal to then good. Now as I try to keep a good reputation I get sick of having to defend myself all the time. Having to argue about the past, others cheating or whatever and I eventually even got demoted as a JDC official for god knows what reason? To me there is no point in guiding players anymore cause as Gry said, players backstab each other anyway and you can't be sure if someone is cheating or not. The only thing that keeps making me join servers are the CCers and some other players I like. Trust me, whenever Sperry lives in the Netherlands I'll be gone and won't be back. There are quite a few players who are starting so many fights and who kill the fun by trying to win SO badly that they have to rely on radar. At least I can say I've never [u]cheated[/u] (note: I didn't say faked before you go back to kings of fake) so severely in a serious match in the past .. 8 years or sth. I've been a noob myself once too and there was JazzAdvantage at those times too :) and I am speaking about the times before jj2wc2 then even, sue me. Actually, I was a shit duelist then and only happened to get good at duels after jj2wc2 basically. Before that I would lose in the first/second round of any duel tournament even if I was quite a good teamplayer already. I mean, I lost to DarkSonic at a duel tournament once too at that time who wasn't and isn't known as a duelist at all :) And then there might be players thinking it isn't so bad etc.. but hey. How does it look when some silly Kenny or Hakum (EXAMPLES) start to play jj2, get good and then annoy the shit out of you to get a duel trying to beat you and show NO respect to a person (we're talking about persons after all..) at all anymore? Simply being so very annoying that it'd make me wish they'd have their mommies join their room and kill their computer just to get rid of them? That's how much some young players pissed me off around a year ago. Less now but still. At least in previous years young kids were just annoying but would actually listen and try to shape up. Now nobody cares and listens anymore, they continue with their shitty behaviour trying to piss others off. Yeah, perhaps it's the community but hey, you can't really change the community anymore right? :) I am looking forward to the time nothing attracts me to Jazz2 anymore. But hey, you've probably all noticed I barely play a match anymore never mind ladders and just join servers randomly to say hi. I totally agree with Toni's post as he wrote already. I mostly agree with what others wrote but I wrote from my own experiences here.

What sucks the most is that everyone in CC except Gry is too demotivated to play JJ2 anymore :(

Well, I'm not really motivated to play competitively, but I am motivated to play some games for fun every now and then and to train with CCers (or CCer, like today: some A/D niceties with zirili)

am i demotivated? sort of. but yeah, the only thing which keeps me playing JJ2 is that i met really nice people there with who i can talk about almost everything :P

The existance of this kind of thread is the proof that this community still has a chance to overcome the problems mentioned by Toni. I play (maybe it`s better to say "used to" bec i`m a bit inactive atm-I have other priorities) this game bec it`s funny and bec I`ve met many interesting ppl while playing it. It`s true that I sometimes behaved badly but I`m trying not to repeat it :P. The thing is that cheaters will never die,ppl will always argue.The important thing is not to focus on these bad things,look at the positive ones. Like Anubis said,there are still a lot of nice people who don`t cheat,who behave nicely etc. I think u are a bit exaggerating.

first of all gj toni,what u just wrote here went right into my mind and i am seriousily thinkin about what u said as u said,this game doesnt have a point anymore i would also like to apologise for every damn insult i use in almost every day i play jj2 but this game rlly pwns me sometimes i promised to myself to be a nice person in jj2 and try to not get involved in conflicts with other people but it doesnt matter how hard i try,is just IMPOSIBBLE for me i so easily get pissed off when i see lagers that trained a lot less than me and arent as good as me but they just smatch me and mess with me in biggest ways ever there are also some people i think they uses cheats since i saw them first time but there is no way i can say sth or try to proove,i just keep that in my mind and try to get used with the ideea i tryed until now to give up from jj2 like 4 times,i just cant.i am not that oldie(just 1 and half year or sth) but still i cant give up from playing it i should rlly try to stop playing ctf and try sth else as veg said,but when i go relaxer and see that some1 finishes a lvl in like 30 sec or that no lifers has best time in every lvl,well.... imo there are some great people that doesnt let this comunity to die like cc admins or some great people without power but nice like rag,hordy,urbs and others P,S:my sis is officially single and id like if we would try more to get the peace in this comunity