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Poll
What do you think of the changes?
They're overpowered
bb vote bb bb
0 (0%)

They're just right!
bb vote bb bb
0 (0%)

Better, but still not enough...
bb vote bb bb
1 (11%)

Craig David
bb vote bb bb
8 (89%)

Votes: 9
     A new balance proposal | [q] 2019-03-19 03:00
Treylinaavatar
JJnet user

Posts: 302
26
TL;DR:
EDIT: Download V3 here: https://ufile.io/tpjd8mq4
Thanks to PurpleJazz (and SE) for scripting them!

What's in the mutator (V1):
- Lori now has a double jump, that is 25% less stronger than Spazzes
- Lori's copter ears now descend slightly faster
- Jazzes already accepted uppercut buffs.
- Copter ears now switch off when you hold off the jump button

V2 CHANGELOG:

Lori
- double jump speed changed from 6 to 6.6 (now 17.5% less stronger instead of 25% less stronger)
- copter ear falling speed changed from 1.25 to 1.5

The doublejump felt too awkward, so it was buffed slightly. You can reach more areas now, but still not as many as Spaz can (which is a fair given!). As a compensation, copter ears fall slightly faster now, making her special jump truly the jack of all trades. I'm considering reverting the latter.


Jazz
- copter ear falling speed changed from 1 to 0.75
- uppercut can be cancelled by pressing fire
- uppercut can be slightly controlled with horizontal arrow keys

The reasoning: Lori has been getting the short end of the stick for a long time, being virtually unplayable in quite a few mappool levels, but still having some neat tricks despite that. Players have tried to figure out a solution that feels right for a long while. Many others have proposed simply making her jump higher, which goes against the spirit of JJ2 character mechanics. Originally, I envisioned ascending copter ears, but they have annoying technical issues with vines and one-ways. So I found a compromise - what if her special jump became the jack of all trades instead?

V3 CHANGELOG:

- The copter ear nerf has been reverted to 1.25
- I have also provided two versions (charbalance and charbalanceHJ) - one with high-jump instead of doublejump. While I prefer the former, the only active Lori player is Parrot Fish and they don't like double jump so I'd figure to sell out. I dislike how it feels, but ascending copter ears feel even worse. I'll let the committee decide what they prefer.

When a clear decision has been made, I'll probably upload this to J2O, as I'm hoping somewhere down the line that these will get used outside of competitive JJ2.


Also, be sure to test out the changes before commenting. Spaz is still the best in most maps, even with these buffs. Her vertical jump height is still technically the lowest among the changes, it's just much more bearable now.

Think something needs tweaking or (god forbid) that she needs no change at all? Let me know!


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Replies
Ragnarok
CX
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JJnet user
Posts: 162
25
#1 | [q]2019-03-19 14:47
I'm all for rabbit inclusion, but since I don't have TSF it's pretty hard for me to test this;

But based on testing a few jumps with spaz/jazz:

Regular jump = ~4 tiles
Running jump = ~7 tiles
Regular double jump = ~6 tiles
Running double jump / Uppercut mut = ~9 tiles
Lori's new double jump = ~5.5 tiles?
Lori's new running double jump = ~8.5 tiles?

And then applying this to a few of the popular levels, I can see significant differences to all of the below:
• Ancient Museum (Full NRG and RF climb)
• The Astrolabe (vines and the powerups)
• Bloodbunny’s Lair (mostly the left Full NRG and bottom area)
• City of the Snooze (better movement over windowsills)
• Diamondus Warzone (everywhere)
• Distopia (particularly around the seek PU)
• Epitome (everywhere)
• Facing Worlds (particularly around the Full NRG and just above the base)
• Gauntlet (everywhere, Lori is unplayable here)
• Hall of the Mountain King (probably v helpful but I think it’s not enough to warrant not being Spaz here)
• Happy Semiconductor CTF (nearly everywhere)
• Swingin’ Jazz (probably mostly around the middle area)
• Trigelateral v3 (probably nearly everywhere, this isn’t very Lori friendly)
• Wicked Wood (nearly everywhere)

She’d probably need testing in levels with these changes to see if it’s viable at all, but I’m inclined to say it’s a touch on the stronger end (although would need testing in mappool levels - I'm happy to advise if someone actually wants to do this with me), and might see Spaz' sidekick becoming obsolete (as well as Jazz' uppercut - give it an extra tile?), in which case I’d probably nerf the double jump to ~50-37.5% instead, still giving a considerable extra height of 1-1.25 whopping tiles. Additionally, she does still have small tricks in BBSwing/JE/Semi/Trig to go through walls, but afaik it’s limited to those levels?

I like the change to copter ears switching off easier, and the idea of faster descent sounds like it definitely has its place in JJ2.

However I think the MAJOR issue with why copter characters aren’t seeing any play (at least I’m not playing Jazz for this reason) is that they’re buggy; copter earing too near the floor removes your ability to jump for a few seconds, and copter earing onto vines removes your ability to jump altogether (which the current mappool has 50% (~11/22?) maps containing vines). This behaviour on the ground isn’t very consistent but it often happens when you particularly need it, and is therefore very punishing in competitive play. (Yes I reported this before, and I don’t remember it happening in Vanilla JJ2, correct me if I’m wrong).
(This post has been helpful to 1 of the forumers.)
Treylina
avatar

JJnet user
Posts: 302
26
#2 | [q]2019-03-19 19:26
Ragnarok wrote:
-snip-


The height nerf feels far more like 50%, since double jump works by increasing the strength of vertical speed, rather than adding a fixed height to your jump. You can feel this by halving the height number in pluscharjump.j2l, as it makes double jump become hilariously tiny instead.

In a nutshell: The double jump is weaker by 25% in terms of vertical speed, but is less higher by 50%.

Violet (and pretty much all of us) are aware of the annoying copter ears bug. I have asked about it though. It's hard to fix (a lot of lines), however. Had it been easy(er), it would've been done by now.

Judging by the amount of meme votes, it's a better idea to simply put the changes into practice and then see what people think. After all, nobody really cares for changes until it personally affects them. <:^)

For those who don't have TSF, here's a half-baked demonstration video in a couple of levels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieb-DicSvh0

If anything..it feels a tad bit weak.


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Ragnarok
CX
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JJnet user
Posts: 162
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#3 | [q]2019-03-19 20:49
If anything I'm in full support of it then.

Would still like if Jazz could uppercut higher tho. emo

Edit: also it looks as thought Trey also fixed the copter bug, even more support. Better uppercut tho pls.
Vegito
CC
avatar
JJnet user
Posts: 401
31
#4 | [q]2019-03-19 23:00
I, as you said, didn't try the changes but watching the vid I'd also say it wouldn't make Lori immediately overpowered.
The difference for Lori players will be big, Spaz players will stick to Spaz probably anyway.
Treylina
avatar

JJnet user
Posts: 302
26
#5 | [q]2019-03-20 23:10
Judging by feedback in-game, the changes are good - but aren't enough.

The difficult part to please is that some say Lori is too weak, while others say the same about Jazz. So I'll see about buffing both of their jumps slightly. However, I really do not want to buff them anymore after that.


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Treylina
avatar

JJnet user
Posts: 302
26
#6 | [q]2019-03-21 01:01
I don't normally double post so soon, but there's a major update! Here's the changelog;

Lori
- double jump speed changed from 6 to 6.6
- copter ear falling speed changed from 1.25 to 1.5

The doublejump felt too awkward, so it was buffed slightly. You can reach more areas now, but still not as many as Spaz can (which is a fair given!). As a compensation, copter ears fall slightly faster now, making her special jump truly the jack of all trades. I'm considering reverting the latter.


Jazz
- copter ear falling speed changed from 1 to 0.75
- uppercut can be cancelled by pressing fire
- uppercut can be slightly controlled with horizontal arrow keys

I went against making Jazzes uppercut higher as I believe it to be better than double-jump in some cases (no need to gather momentum, makes a ton of RF jumps/climbs easier and you can even reach some areas Spaz normally can't with doublejump), but I added some quality of life changes for better flow.

I'll be giving this a longer testing period. Until then...

Download here: http://www.filedropper.com/charbalance_2


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Ragnarok
CX
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JJnet user
Posts: 162
25
#7 | [q]2019-03-30 17:24
Would anyone care to do some testing on this?

(CJ I'm lookin at you!) emo
Ragnarok
CX
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JJnet user
Posts: 162
25
#8 | [q]2019-04-04 23:44
Since there were no further replies, I suggest we implement this as it fixes the copter bugs too then. emo
Jelly Jam
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JJnet user
Posts: 337
10
#9 | [q]2019-04-05 03:20
I kind of liked this until it was decided to increase Lori's copter ear falling speed. I feel like it takes away one of the reasons for Lori users to play as Lori in the first place.

At least the handling for the copter move is sort of better now, but due to Lori's new handicap, I don't think it's overall enough.
Vivando
-t3>
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JJnet admin
Posts: 122
28
#10 | [q]2019-04-07 19:45
I support this, but I'm a bit unsure whether it's a good idea to force the balance change mid-season without asking each clan's opinion first. Otherwise I would enable it at the start of the next season though.
Treylina
avatar

JJnet user
Posts: 302
26
#11 | [q]2019-04-13 23:19
Now that the bash is over, I'll come back to this and start testing it more. No rush though, as I don't imagine this to be applied in the middle of the season.

I'll revert the copter ear nerfs for Lori in the next version, but I want to see what else could possibly be tweaked before I push out v3.


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Treylina
avatar

JJnet user
Posts: 302
26
#12 | [q]2019-10-22 01:00
Here it is, a long overdue update. Better late than never.

Download here: https://ufile.io/tpjd8mq4

The copter ear nerf has been reverted. I have also provided two versions (charbalance and charbalanceHJ) - one with high-jump instead of doublejump. While I prefer the former, the only active Lori player is Parrot Fish and they don't like double jump so I'd figure to sell out. I dislike how it feels, but ascending copter ears feel even worse. I'll let the committee decide what they prefer. When a clear decision has been made, I'll probably upload this to J2O, as I'm hoping somewhere down the line that these will get used outside of competitive JJ2.

Unless anyone gives better ideas, these are the set in stone final versions.


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Ragnarok
CX
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JJnet user
Posts: 162
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#13 | [q]2019-11-20 19:49
Just thought I'd share my two pieces on what copter characters need.

While I like the idea of what's done in this mut for Jazz in particular (I am unable to test Lori), I'm afraid both characters would still feel inferior to Spaz for a few reasons;
- Spaz has a long-ranged and useful melee move, whilst Jazz's is very hard to land unless levels are designed to allow it. Lori's is good, but is still subject to design I'd say.
- Spaz is able to jump out of tricky situations and almost cancel his momentum with his double jump, something Jazz/Lori could NEVER do.
- Spaz is much more versatile at RF bouncing off walls, or even RF climbing.

What I would propose is needed is to actually find unique ways to overpower Jazz/Lori. Particularly, what I would like to see is some emphasis on improving the copter ears to do the following:
- Keep changes with regards to the copter-ears being able to be turned off at will/not bug out on the floor/vines.
- Remove momentum whilst copter-earing, and allow the ability to turn in midair without having to slow down completely.

Other things I would suggest are to make the uppercut actually shoot higher than a Spaz-double jump. It's a unique move, why not make it feel like one? You can argue that the uppercut being able to reach Spaz max double jump height is very strong, but in reality it's really not as good unless you're in a vertical situation, which is why this mut tailors to that a little bit by allowing slight diagonal shots. However, I find that it's still a lot of effort to slow down completely and duck and uppercut in the right spot, as opposed to just double jump and fire an RF as Spaz.

Another idea would be to allow characters to have an upward trajectory from RFs while initiating (first 0.5s?) copter ears for the first time in their jump, although I bet that's gonna feel a bit weird.

My point is that I think it's important that we're not afraid of breaking balance with something like this, as Spaz is always gonna feel vastly superior. I'd like to see Jazz/Lori have significantly unique gimmicks, that don't rely on level design entirely to make them feel more useful. Then tweak as appropriate emo!
Pariah
[GpW]
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JJnet user
Posts: 22
3
#14 | [q]2019-12-19 22:42
@rag: spaz meelee move is not so special jazz and lori have great moves too.2; spaz is able to cancel momentium and reverse derection complitly with the dubble jump, this is why most play as spaz and the only reason.3;being better at rfbouncig etc is not a big deal jazz/lori can do this to u only need to learn it the gap is not so wide as to mean anything. all this talk about how great spaz is is nice but jazz/lori can do something spaz can never ever do; they can fly, which is they fall at a super slow rate while still have lateral movement possibility.

the three balllance mods ive played: the mod where jazz/lori have a double jump and then after you used your doubble jump then u can fly is simply horrid, if yer going to make everyone a spaz go all the way and just eliminate jazz/lori, if i wanted to play as a spaz i would play as a spaz, this is not so difficult people.
2: the mod where loris flying must must be kept up by clicking jump all the time; the animation on this is ugly, the movement is irksomehaving to press jump so much is not nice, but i see why this is done, ive often had the problem of clicking jump thus flying and so im caught in a bad spot and die because i made the mistake of flying when i should not. this mod would solve the problem, but if u have this problem u need to play better, learn when not to fly, flying with minimal clicks is what makes jazz/lori diffrent and great, perhaps i would even play better with this mod, i still dont like it.
3: where lori/jazz normal jump is a little bit higher, i think i played this but im really not sure, its not very noticable, ive often missed jumps barely, i would make the jumps with this and it would be even less noticeable, i wouldn't make a jump if i know id miss it so i wouldn't notice when i didn't miss.

i like to play as something different then anyone else, people think lori/jazz so much inferior to spaz when the differences arent so great, lori has great moves, the reason i havn't pawned with it is not because lori sucks, but im not that good, i once dueled jety as a spaz when she played as lori, i still lost 10-1. i havnt fully learned how to play as lori.

Treylina
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JJnet user
Posts: 302
26
#15 | [q]2020-03-22 02:40
After my long-arse hiatus from online play, I'm gonna see about improving this mutator. I didn't see these comments at the time, so my bad. Some ideas:

1. Decrease Loris falling copter speed a tiny bit.
2. Add some unorthodox stuff, like being able to use melee in midair by holding on the up button and/or a movement option that allows you to strafe backwards like doublejump, minus the height bonus. Not 100% sure about this since players will probably be completely unaware until they are told. It would get around the limited utility of uppercut though.
3. The way copter ears are programmed leads me to believe you can't really "cancel momentum" with it, but you can increase the X-axis, thus increasing the turning speed. Try out the top-right corner in pluscharjump, one of the levels included with plus.

Going the charbalanceHJ route (higher base jump instead of small doublejumo+copter) seems more likely at this point, even though I'm not a fan of it.

Also uh;

"2: the mod where loris flying must must be kept up by clicking jump all the time; the animation on this is ugly, the movement is irksomehaving to press jump so much is not nice, but i see why this is done, ive often had the problem of clicking jump thus flying and so im caught in a bad spot and die because i made the mistake of flying when i should not. this mod would solve the problem, but if u have this problem u need to play better, learn when not to fly, flying with minimal clicks is what makes jazz/lori diffrent and great, perhaps i would even play better with this mod, i still dont like it."

Whatever you used, that has never been part of charbalance. You've only ever had to hold on jump to keep using copter ears. Either way, I am not adding ascending copter ears because they work incredibly poorly with one ways and vines.


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