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By: Slaz, in: JJ2 ladder clan comparisons » Clan talk 2021-07-07 22:17
CDF is still the sexiest clan. :flex:
By: MaximuS , in: JJ2 ladder clan comparisons » Clan talk 2021-06-28 14:05
Best post of 2021 :-D
By: Splat, in: JJ2 needs more strictly moderated servers » JJ2 related 2021-06-27 05:15
The URL below is a link to the Waybackmachine Arch...
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JJ2 ladder clan comparisons =====================...
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During the prior decade, I gradually tried to offe...
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That just means the rules are flawed; it should de...
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Hahaha oh my god, I see some of you have saved som...
By: MasterSven, in: Watching broadcasts while playing CW is cheating » Improving rules 2021-06-06 15:18
Yes during stopped games it could be unethically a...
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Indeed Anubis, was gonna say that :D
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True, unexpected breaks during the game can potent...
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I did have it open to look at the chat after some ...
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Are there any JJ2 couples that have kids already? ...
By: Splat, in: Watching broadcasts while playing CW is cheating » Improving rules 2021-06-06 01:11
Watching broadcasts while playing CW is cheating.....
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JJ2 needs more strictly moderated servers... Pe...
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By: Vivando, in: Funniest moments! » Forum games 2021-05-15 22:22
Nice one!
By: MasterSven, in: Funniest moments! » Forum games 2021-05-15 22:03
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By: Splat, in: VPN should be required in CW's » Site suggestions 2021-05-12 17:00
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By: Splat, in: New players wanted » JJ2 related 2021-04-24 10:37
-Sorry for spam. (Posted too much on forums.) ....
By: Splat, in: cheating and admins » Site suggestions 2021-04-05 15:42
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By: MaximuS , in: cheating and admins » Site suggestions 2021-03-25 01:15
I’m so happy that a lot of people feel connected...
By: Splat, in: Watching people drown » Ask Tira 2021-03-24 15:52
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By: Splat, in: cheating and admins » Site suggestions 2021-03-23 13:49
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By: Kev, in: cheating and admins » Site suggestions 2021-03-14 19:06
lmao k i hope this is my last comment in this issu...
By: Kev, in: cheating and admins » Site suggestions 2021-03-14 16:06
If gpw rejects the council then thats absolutely l...
By: MasterSven, in: cheating and admins » Site suggestions 2021-03-14 14:25
Basically we had a council like that before and we...
By: cooba, in: cheating and admins » Site suggestions 2021-03-14 01:18
This should have been done 10 years ago.
By: Vivando, in: cheating and admins » Site suggestions 2021-03-13 16:40
I am happy about this change. Mad props to Kev for...
By: Kev, in: cheating and admins » Site suggestions 2021-03-13 13:15
ok some time has passed since i sent the council i...
By: Splat, in: Primetime - Rag vs Splat » Off topic 2021-03-13 00:56
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By: Vivando, in: [MULTI] Domination map making contest! » JJ2 related 2021-03-11 23:31
Congratulations to Violet! i-) :goodgame:
By: MaximuS , in: [MULTI] Domination map making contest! » JJ2 related 2021-03-11 20:49
The DOM map making contest has ended with Violet C...
By: Pariah, in: cheating and admins » Site suggestions 2021-03-10 07:22
@cooba: yep.
More...!

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     cheating and admins | [q] 2021-03-04 08:05
Pariahavatar
JJnet user

Posts: 26
3
so where we are now is we have this open wound of people accused of cheating(A7med fr) and they cant be convicted of cheating,(but circumstantial evidence and with the lack of an impartial witness) nor acquitted as admins still clearly believe they cheated. i mean to argue and explain how we got here; years ago cc dominated and maintained psychological superiority, sometime in the clouded past some unknown player created cx clan, collected all the best players to it and secured and achieved a dominance unparalleled by anything ive seen. thus twas during this epoch a group of mediocre players collected with gpw, and played ladders against the vaunted cx; the results not close for gpw, some called cx cheaters etc. eventually gpw played better and thought they could win a season against a mostly idle cx, but no cx pawned them again! ha haw. now gpw didnt blame their defeat on inferior play, but blamed the rules and at once set to work picking on the rules; after some incessint attacks, the admins of jjnet being weak bowed to gpw and changed the rules. with the admins put it their place, and the rules more to their liking we now believed we could win a season, and set to playing ladders as before. with the rules changed cx played more active to win the season, but gpw played close ladders and often won vs cx: apparently my team developed a new way of playing, a way i never learned and barely comprehend(they want me to s vs two r ive done this but then e always scores dying one second after i do.) as far as i can tell this new way of playing is to expect to be as lucky as king olaf and to steal all the luck u can.(ive been kind of a fifth wheel playing with them as its a stupid way to play, and i never accepted it.)

cx being unwilling to relinquish full psychological superiority felt gpw was cheating, collected and fed evidence to admins.(admins being weak they go along with it exactly how they change the rules for gpw.) this anti cheating campaign culminating with the clanwar. after much labours collecting evidence and organizing it; the admins posts a huge mountain entirely of circumstantial evidence which stands stalwart till the jury of se and yacinedz criticize it.

and here we are... admins stuck in mud... cant move forward as after such a devastating failure of a case now firerabbit and A7med will never beleive they cheated, and any jury would do the same as se and yacinedz. nor backwards as admins still believe they cheated... so here we are, gpw so offended they are dead, cx so devastated they are dead, and some people planing on creating another ladder site.

so, why am i here? .... i used to play another game which had a wonderful ladder, perfectly functional and great in every way; but one day some people disagreed with how the admins ran the site, i posted something with them. the admins kill the site..... the game is ruined; i feel as if my post was so devastating it killed the site. i dont want this to happer again, i love this site. anything shaker or anybody else builds will be inferior to this....
im here to help you, to show you the way out of the mud.
1: gpw didnt cheat; i played with slayer when he cheated, it was so much fun, it was so easy; so easy that it was obvious to me when i saw the cheat accusation he cheated. when cc set up the game vs slayer and caught him cheating, they got cut to ribbons; a leet cc team with cc at the zenith of her power beaten silly. this is not what happened here: cx coulda won if they woulda caught firerabbit. ive played vs gpw, and i agree with maximus, "for a long time playing against you guys wasn't fun" someone develops a new way of playing and because you think your way of playing is great, you presume they cheated. ive played vs jety and known exactly where shes going and when she going their and nineteen times out of twenty i ether get there too late or get in her way and cant hit her. if gpw ever comes back to play it is only going to get worse as they improve. they are hell to play against but if ye dont play you wont learn. you owe gpw an apoligee for accusing them of cheating. and you also owe cx an apoligee for failing them, they trusted you and you failed badly.(they should have made the accusation themselfs, but you made it for them and you failed.)
2: you still believe gpw cheated then stand for what u believe and ban them, damn the evidence and the jurys and ban them on your power as admin! throw off the chains of pretend democracy which make you weak and be really and truly in charge of and in control of your own site.

you have dishonored the site; go left or right, i dont care which; gpw and cx have been at each other for a long time, this is not your problem. your charge is the site, restore the honor of the site. emo
Replies
Kev
-t3>
avatar
JJnet user
Posts: 66
6
#1 | [q]2021-03-04 11:58
Let me give you an update on where we are now, based on what I know:

sj and me had a discord chat with a7med lazar naps lahm and urbs being present from gpw. there we presented our concluding point of view about what happened and apologized to a7med/pav and gpw for the things which we believe we did wrong. (Pav wasn’t present in that group due to limited user number. But I guess he got the message.) if you are interested in reading our message, here it is: https://imgur.com/qQpzxxA

Loon had a conversation with lahm where he tried to make peace and apologized to lahm and whole gpw for what he thinks he did wrong.

in the past i asked jjnet crew if we want to post a public concluding statement from our side but I didn’t really get a clear answer.

Next, a few weeks ago we decided to transfer all decision making power for EVERY clanladder-competition related decision from jjnet admins to the (existing) clan councils. I think it applied to rules changes and mapool changes in the past already. Now it includes judgement about rules violations and bans, too. This means that clanladder-competition related decisions are not made by jjnet admins anymore but by the clans who decide things together in a more democratic/fair way with equal power. We had a brief conversation with urbs about the drama recently. Afaik he wanted to read up the gpw chat and talk to gpw. Gpw is invited to be part of decision-making in the council, too. We sent urbs the whole message of that council idea (including all details) and are waiting for him to share it with gpw group chat on discord so you can make up your minds about it. But urbs is not responding anymore for quite some time now lol. So now that you made this post here we might just send you the whole message with all the details via somebody else I guess.

This is where we and jjnet are now. Now let me reply to some of your statements.

“someone develops a new way of playing and because you think your way of playing is great, you presume they cheated.”
--> we accused them of cheating bcs of the “evidence” that was collected. If we had not noticed so many moments in a7med and pav (before knowing about field of vision shift mentioned by SE) then there would not have been any bans in the first place, regardless of people’s personal opinions.

“so, why am i here? “ “im here to help you, to show you the way out of the mud. “ “you still believe gpw cheated then stand for what u believe and ban them, damn the evidence and the jurys and ban them on your power as admin”
--> oh boy that escalated quickly! Jjnet is not Russian/Chinese government. Not caring about evidence would be very arbitrary, mean and unfair. It doesn’t matter whether we personally believe they cheated or not. All that matters is evidence. If all jjnet admins just personally believed a7med/pav cheated but there was zero evidence, then there would have been no bans. Eventho it looked like a clear case to us before knowing about FOV-shift, rushing the bans without discussing the evidence more sufficiently with gpw/3rd party people was kinda arbitrary too, and I apologize for that once more. But again, after reevaluating the evidence and seeing that many moments became unclear jjnet reversed the bans right away instead of justyfing them and everyone is free to play since then. Like I said, the clan council is the judge of cheating accusations now, not jjnet admins.

“some people planing on creating another ladder site.”
--> thats the way to go if you still want to play competitively and hate jjnet so much despite the facts that…
1) jjnet corrected the mistake and unbanned everyone. (everyone is free to play and all of gpw who still wanted to play ladders even after the drama happened could have done so the whole season already - but ye make a new laddersite)
2) the two admins (gry&kyro) which some of gpw complained so much about are totally inactive and have other things to care about.
3) I guess people's/gpw's problems with single admins dont even matter much anymore anyway bcs of 4)
4) all clanladder-competition related decisions are now being made in agreement of all council clans with equal power, instead of jjnet admins, including judgement about rules violations.
5) at least 3 of the involved people tried to make peace and apologized for the things they think they did wrong. While the others myb don’t care at all cuz they are inactive and busy with life or perhaps they just don’t see a mistake bcs...
- myb they think doing the investigation for contributing to fair play was legit (remember there wouldn’t have been bans without finding so many moments in the first place)
- myb they think rushing the bans was legit bcs it looked like a totally clear case to them
- myb they think unbanning a7med/pav right away after reevaluating the evidence corrected the mistake anyway.
Idk what's on their mind regarding all this.




Vivando
-t3>
avatar
JJnet admin
Posts: 135
30
#2 | [q]2021-03-04 22:16
Kev already replied quite thoroughly, but here are some points I wanted to add based on my personal point of view.

The same night when we had a chat with a number of people from GpW on Discord, I sent a personal apology to Urbs via Messenger. To my knowledge Urbs has been very inactive on Discord lately, so I thought I would catch him faster this way and I did. However, he wanted to handle the situation later with peace as he was really busy at that time to my understanding.

A bit over a week later a part of us JJNet crew finally had a short chat with Urbs on Discord about the situation. He promised to go through the related conversations and I was hoping to hear back from him, but I can only imagine his total message count on Discord after being inactive there for so long, so I'm under the assumption that he is still busy going through the conversations on his minimal spare time. We briefly talked about writing some kind of an official JJNet statement too, but to my understanding Urbs wanted to try to talk to his clanmates first. Anyway I can only speak for myself at this point.

I have stated this on other channels than JJNet already, but anyway I'm here as a JJNet crew member to emphasize that since the cheating evidence became unclear based on the public feedback, I fully support the decision to lift the bans and I apologize to A7med and Pavlus for this rushed decision and to all others whose feelings were hurt from it.
MasterSven
[CDF]
avatar
JJnet user
Posts: 411
42
#3 | [q]2021-03-05 00:00
I don't think the rules changed that much over the past few years, especially in a way that would allow GpW to perform much better. Speaking of rules, still looking forward to the completion of the councils. I already got a list of rules to tweak.
cooba
[si]
avatar
JJnet user
Posts: 333
51
#4 | [q]2021-03-06 02:14
CX was a mistake


Jazz 2 Online
http://www.jazz2online.com
Pariah
avatar

JJnet user
Posts: 26
3
#5 | [q]2021-03-06 04:13
well thanks Kev, i never herd of any of this. i never had any problem with grytolle and kyro being admins,

[quote[Kev[--> oh boy that escalated quickly! Jjnet is not Russian/Chinese government.]
well im suggesting it should be. overly democratic institutions are a mistake.


[qoute[cooba[CX was a mistake]
i disagree, CX is great. gpw would never be as great as it is without CX to beat us into shape.
cooba
[si]
avatar
JJnet user
Posts: 333
51
#6 | [q]2021-03-06 16:09
You're a psycho.


Jazz 2 Online
http://www.jazz2online.com
[GpW]Urbs
[GpW]
avatar
JJnet user
Posts: 383
56
#7 | [q]2021-03-07 21:39
I understand why some of our players are pissed, but I would prefer if they took their anger out on their opponents in a more direct way via ladder and clanwars.

Now I need to have a talk with GpWers (I apologize to all parties for not doing this sooner, will come around to the server next week), but looking at it from a distance I can see why this split happened, but I can't condone it, even though I'm glad that the initial ruling was overturned (where, btw I'd like to thank the admins for swiftly deleting the initial malicious spamfest from one of our competitors).

Saying that we should all get along would be just plain stupid, but I do hope that our players see that the admins are trying to move things in a new direction. SJ wrote and apologized to me even though I don't think he owed me an apology so I can only give kudos there. Now it could be that the differences are irreconcilable, but I hope that this isn't going to be the case.
(This post has been helpful to 2 of the forumers.)
Pariah
avatar

JJnet user
Posts: 26
3
#8 | [q]2021-03-10 07:22
@cooba: yep.
Kev
-t3>
avatar
JJnet user
Posts: 66
6
#9 | [q]2021-03-13 13:15
ok some time has passed since i sent the council invitation message to urbs to share it with gpw discord server. as im not exactly sure whether he shared the message in it or not, id like to post it here too, so every gpw member can read it. so here it goes:

In order to make the clanladder competition more democratic and fair, jjnet crew has agreed to transfer the decision making power for every clanladder-competition related decision from jjnet admins to the clan councils. This includes decisions about rules changes, judgement about rules violations (which was different in the past) and mapool changes, for example.

Curently there is already a rules council and a mapool council. We intend to use those two. depending on what issues come up, different councils could be needed.
The councils are supposed to consist of about two people of each presented clan, in order to discuss things. Regardless of the exact number of clan members in the council, each clan will always have 1 vote when it comes to decision making. Every clan’s vote is equal. This way all present clans have equal power. Decisions will only be made and executed if ALL present clans agree to it. To give an example: if its suggested to increase timelimit to 15 minutes and 3/4 clans vote “yes” but 1/4 clans votes “no”, then the timelimit will stay the same.

At least that’s how the rules council is supposed to work. We will probably need a slightly different approach (other than all clans agreeing on all maps) in the mapool council. We will decide about how the mapool is selected, when all council members are present there.

For this system to work, all included clans will be required to be willing to make a compromise every now and then, as decisions about rules can only be made when all clans agree. But as there are reasonable people in every clan, we hope that this system will be successful in managing the clanladder-competition.

Jjnet crew will continue to run the website and other jjnet related issues. But everything related to the clanladder-competition will be decided in common agreement by all present clans in the council and not by jjnet admins, anymore. This way all clanladder related decisions are made by a more representative group of people.

Ideas and suggestions are welcome, too.


if gpw wants to join the council, please let us know. ofc feel free to refuse the invitation if you dont want to be part of the council.
Vivando
-t3>
avatar
JJnet admin
Posts: 135
30
#10 | [q]2021-03-13 16:40
I am happy about this change. Mad props to Kev for suggesting this idea. The main problem with the JJNet crew was always that the decision making power was divided unequally among active clans, which naturally caused many complaints among the years. Once the councils are complete, we can ensure that every decision is applied with full reason, as full consensus among the clan representatives needs to be achieved. Time will tell how this new system will work for evolving the competition itself as well, as I'm sure that many of the council members (new ones too) will have fresh ideas to bring up.

Meanwhile we, the people running JJNet as its crew members no longer need to worry about how to deal with the rules or how to make judgements, but can focus on site maintenance and development. Last spring I retired as a JJNet admin after having had sort of a burnout from administrating the ladder. I had been doing a lot of its tasks alone, culminating in the cheating investigation which was a heavy burden on its own, with lots of external pressure from all directions too. Luckily I wasn't forced to make any final decisions on my own. Nowadays I'm still part of the crew as a site developer, though I have been assisting with admin decisions too in the background. Teamwork is way more fun than being under pressure alone. I am anyway happy to give the rest of the decision-making power away to the council (which I am part of anyway), to divide power and workload more equally among other people too.
cooba
[si]
avatar
JJnet user
Posts: 333
51
#11 | [q]2021-03-14 01:18
This should have been done 10 years ago.


Jazz 2 Online
http://www.jazz2online.com
MasterSven
[CDF]
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JJnet user
Posts: 411
42
#12 | [q]2021-03-14 14:25
Basically we had a council like that before and we delivered a lot of good work imo and my expectations are that this will be so again.

https://jazzjackrabbit.net/index.php?league=1&season=1&op=com&id=668

Check out the first line of this newspost.
Kev
-t3>
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JJnet user
Posts: 66
6
#13 | [q]2021-03-14 16:06
If gpw rejects the council then thats absolutely legit. As i got some feedback now i just want to make sure that the reason for the rejection isnt based on some misunderstanding about the role of certain (even quite inactive) jjnet admins. Admins representing their clans in the council have the same rights/power as everyone else in the council and they arent supposed to push for their own personal opinions but to represent the opinion of their clan. Again, a decision is only made when all clans agree to it. So no, admins dont have special power in the council.
Kev
-t3>
avatar
JJnet user
Posts: 66
6
#14 | [q]2021-03-14 19:06
lmao k i hope this is my last comment in this issue.
so from what i understood among other things gpw is very sceptical about future decisions/behavior of admins, as theoretically admins could just make clanladder related decisions on their own again, without the council.

i think there are 2 scenarios in case gpw joins the council/ladder:

1) eventually admins break their word and fck things up, in which case you have verification of your initial doubts about this and simply leave jjnet behind for good.
2) against your expectations admins do not fck things up or do some bad stuff, the council runs nicely and makes the clanladder related decisions, and the few gpw members who perhaps might be interested in playing in the ladder have more power in it.

youre not losing anything if you find it out by simply giving it a try.

either way, if you ever change your mind in the future i guess gpw has their place in the council. take care
Splat

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JJnet user
Posts: 31
3
#15 | [q]2021-03-23 13:49
Radar is actually ez 2 maek, just click on the map several times at once, it's basic echolocation.
MaximuS
[CDF]
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JJnet user
Posts: 55
2
#16 | [q]2021-03-25 01:15
I’m so happy that a lot of people feel connected to the scene, I would be much happier if they would take their time and play.

Private opinion. People who don’t participate should have little to say on how things are or should be.
Splat

avatar
JJnet user
Posts: 31
3
#17 | [q]2021-04-05 15:42
It's not always plausible to open JJ2, especially for the sake of dialogue. Public availability of computers is scarce in most areas. Loading JJ2 onto a public computer with limited availability is also more deliberate. Thereby talking on WWW instead of JJ2 needn't be disincentivized.

Furthermore since I retired from playing ladders, yet I played about 8 years worth of ladders, denying players the ability to communicate about ladder will just lead to a lack of communication. That maybe fine if ladder is supposed to continue with just invitee participants, although that'd really be a change of events.

Granted that this season of ladder appears to have only CDF and T3 jointly vyeing for 200 points, with GPW and CX not participating, and CC not distinctly contending for 1st place. This scenario could be actually optimal for ladder overall, if there's just marginal interest from CC, CX, and GPW. Clans that are most invested into the ladder won't have random other teams competing. Most particularly, if players from T3 and CDF are controlling the rules of ladder, there's no rationale for other teams to compete on the basis of a fair tournament competition, with an (arguably imbalanced) level playing field.

My personal opinion technically disregards the current season; I just don't want to play anymore ladder. I'm not motivated to play so many games nonstop. This thread isn't about me though and my point overall is that -- it's pointless to try and decide who gets to share their thoughts on a topic (such as radar usage during ladders) because that will make you thoughtless and oblivious, and most people would sooner be thoughtful than thoughtless; that much is glaringly obvious.