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Latest forum posts
By: King, in: Funniest moments! » Forum games 2020-05-19 20:40
:(
By: i:m, in: Funniest moments! » Forum games 2020-05-19 20:37
[23:46:21] Jety: pavlo, u wanted wrn's ip? [23:46...
By: i:m, in: Funniest moments! » Forum games 2020-05-19 20:33
[23:07:40] o0o: join cw server when [23:07:41] [S...
By: Toni, in: [NT 2020] News » National Tournament 2020-05-16 16:23
First week of knockout stage is completed! We h...
By: Toni, in: [NT 2020] News » National Tournament 2020-05-12 00:49
Knockout stage games First semifinal game has b...
By: Toni, in: [NT 2020] News » National Tournament 2020-04-18 21:38
First week of knockout stage is completed! We h...
By: Lahm, in: [NT 2020] National Tournament Starts! » National Tournament 2020-03-29 23:31
RO vetoes: AM and DW
By: Vivando, in: [NT 2020] National Tournament Starts! » National Tournament 2020-03-29 19:42
Added vetoes for team Nordics earlier. I'll announ...
By: Lynx[GpW], in: [NT 2020] National Tournament Starts! » National Tournament 2020-03-28 22:16
Czechoslovakia vetoes: TCS and DW
By: Krzysiek, in: [NT 2020] National Tournament Starts! » National Tournament 2020-03-28 21:19
Poland: DW and AM
By: Toni, in: [NT 2020] National Tournament Starts! » National Tournament 2020-03-28 17:50
Serbia B: Epitome and Stronghold
By: Kyro, in: [NT 2020] National Tournament Starts! » National Tournament 2020-03-28 17:45
Egypt vetoes: Diamondus Warzone & Technodus Cargo ...
By: Kev, in: [NT 2020] National Tournament Starts! » National Tournament 2020-03-28 13:42
Germany vetos: Astro and Daybreak
By: Ragnarok, in: [NT 2020] National Tournament Starts! » National Tournament 2020-03-27 21:46
That's good Urbs! What's the best way to conta...
By: [GpW]Urbs, in: [NT 2020] National Tournament Starts! » National Tournament 2020-03-27 21:33
BTW not sure where to post this, but I guess i cou...
By: MasterSven, in: [NT 2020] National Tournament Starts! » National Tournament 2020-03-27 17:17
Netherlands vetoes: Distopia and Astro.
By: MaximuS , in: [NT 2020] National Tournament Starts! » National Tournament 2020-03-27 14:41
Team Brexit vetoes: none
By: HordY, in: [NT 2020] National Tournament Starts! » National Tournament 2020-03-27 14:01
Serbia A vetoes: DW and TCS.
By: Toni, in: [NT 2020] National Tournament Starts! » National Tournament 2020-03-27 12:55
You can announce your veto maps here before you sc...
By: Laro24, in: [NT 2020] National Tournament Starts! » National Tournament 2020-03-27 01:37
Brexit..? xd rly?
By: MaximuS , in: [NT 2020] National Tournament Starts! » National Tournament 2020-03-26 20:11
Final egy srb
By: Vivando, in: [NT 2020] National Tournament Starts! » National Tournament 2020-03-26 17:12
Group A pog 3:-)
By: Toni, in: [NT 2020] National Tournament Starts! » National Tournament 2020-03-26 15:58
Dear players, Hereby we announce the grand open...
By: Kev, in: [NT 2020] Sign Ups » National Tournament 2020-03-24 15:37
pull some american continent team of splat, empive...
By: HordY, in: [NT 2020] Sign Ups » National Tournament 2020-03-24 10:57
Just a suggestion * As for now we have 11 teams...
By: Ragnarok, in: [NT 2020] Sign Ups » National Tournament 2020-03-23 20:10
For those who are interested in the mappool: - ...
By: Kyro, in: [NT 2020] Sign Ups » National Tournament 2020-03-23 17:12
EGYPT Kyro (cpt.) Anna A7med Batata Sonic ...
By: MasterSven, in: [NT 2020] Sign Ups » National Tournament 2020-03-23 10:21
There is nothing wrong with listing them. Its mor...
By: Kev, in: [NT 2020] Sign Ups » National Tournament 2020-03-23 08:52
whats wrong with listing inactive players? perhaps...
By: MasterSven, in: [NT 2020] Sign Ups » National Tournament 2020-03-23 08:46
I agree Shaker. And its not just GER, but we will ...
By: ShakerNL, in: [NT 2020] Sign Ups » National Tournament 2020-03-23 00:04
Wait, is Kev serious? Most of those players have b...
By: Krzysiek, in: [NT 2020] Sign Ups » National Tournament 2020-03-22 20:47
Poland - Pati (Captain) - Dragon - Krzysiek ...
By: Toni, in: [NT 2020] Sign Ups » National Tournament 2020-03-22 16:36
8 teams already! :) 2 more days to sign up
By: Treylina, in: A new balance proposal » Improving rules 2020-03-22 02:40
After my long-arse hiatus from online play, I'm go...
By: Krzysiek, in: [NT 2020] Sign Ups » National Tournament 2020-03-21 18:41
lol 2k20 and sidzej still naming himself with 2 ni...
By: [GpW]Urbs, in: [NT 2020] Sign Ups » National Tournament 2020-03-21 18:14
Egypt not playing? FML no team Austro-Hungary :...
By: Vivando, in: [NT 2020] Sign Ups » National Tournament 2020-03-21 17:41
Team Nordics (NORD): -SJ/Vivando (Cpt.) -Black...
By: Lynx[GpW], in: [NT 2020] Sign Ups » National Tournament 2020-03-21 16:24
Czechoslovakia : -Lynx (cpt.) -Mirari -Clank...
By: Kev, in: [NT 2020] Sign Ups » National Tournament 2020-03-21 13:01
Germany Kev (cpt) JJB Shady H8breed Tiramis...
By: HordY, in: [NT 2020] Sign Ups » National Tournament 2020-03-21 12:39
Team SRB - A : ~ Hordy (cpt) - Artegor - Pavl...
More...!
Cheats and Punishments 2020-05-19 21:15 | Vivando
The JJNet crew have deemed A7med and Pavlus to be guilty of cheating during ladder season 17. There has been an increasing amount of video and chatlog evidence of both players using a radar or equivalent software to gain more vision on their opponents in game. The video evidence has been recorded in various types of matches, including duels, clanwars, trainings and NT matches. A group of detectives took their time to analyze the suspicious video material to find out all the suspicious moments.

The punishments are as follows:

-Pav - Banned for 2 years from competitive play
-A7med - Banned for 2 years from competitive play
-Gpw - All the points gained during season 17 are taken away

The evidence is split up into many parts and all of it is available for anyone to see, for transparency. There is a video compilation for each player, showing the most suspicious moments from all the evidence. Besides the compilation videos, there are also evidence documents; One for the most suspicious moments altogether and another one for low evidence moments. The low evidence document contains all the moments which were deemed as suspicious at first, but later evaluated to be of no real evidence, due to plausible explanations like voice-communication, etc. Finally, there are also all the full chatlogs that were partly used in the video compilations.

Video compilation on A7med
Video compilation on Pavlus
Evidence document
Low evidence document
Chatlog from Egy vs NL JE round
Chatlog from SRB vs UK
Chatlog from SRB vs GER

What happens regarding the national tournament 2020, will follow up shortly.
Comments
Pariah
avatar
2020-06-01 00:08 
as far as i can tell all the "evidence" is circumstantial, best piece i see is tony's testimony, ive thought much the same things playing vs pavlus, but still nothing u would not feel if you played vs jety, should we accuse jety of cheating for this? i dont, losing to jety i feel she cheats, so i watch her play, jety dont make any move that i couldnt do, its only better play then me. seeing all the "evidence" is only circumstantial i see no reason to assume pavlus different from jety. as for a7med being with this, a7med isnt even good, a7med is noob.
like people saying O. J. sympson killed nicole. never happened.
Ragnarok
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2020-05-23 02:45 
And I'll take the time to respond to the rest in due course.

Nothing was a formality, nor was I planning to ignore it.
Ragnarok
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2020-05-23 02:04 
Maybe take an actual look at the first few pages.
ThunDer
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2020-05-23 01:49 
No offense but the gif was sorta equal (or somehow more!) to your lovely delicate explanations.

Edited: 2020-05-23 01:49 by ThunDer
Artegor
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2020-05-23 01:46 
"However, from nearly everything that has been reviewed thusfar (at least by me), they have written things that are pretty nonsensical, clinging to SE's explanations where they do not apply, or repeating the word chance for extremely bizarre successions of events."

@Rag , I didn't see you typed anything in that document tho. Or maybe 1 out of 42 pages that the document has, which makes me feel your plan never was to consider what we had to say. Giving us an opportunity to "dispute" the "evidence" was just a formality. In fact, you are not even taking seriously what we wrote there but you're posting gif's and troll in that document.
So, if you're showing 0 respect behind the scenes, don't pretend you're showing some here.
Thanks. Bye.
Ahmo
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2020-05-23 01:35 
https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/593514607767978004.png?v=1
ThunDer
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2020-05-23 01:32 
I'd personally take one clean and honest over millions shady and underhanded anytime, mate.

Edited: 2020-05-23 01:32 by ThunDer
ShadowGPW
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2020-05-23 01:29 
Alright boys, next season you can play without [GPW].
Ahmo
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2020-05-23 01:27 
Not really Shadow everybody would miss the tradition and honour please don't even think about it emo
Ragnarok
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2020-05-23 01:23 
Hi Shadow,

For lack of a better way of putting it; some of your clanmates have been given the chance to dispute the evidence. However, from nearly everything that has been reviewed thusfar (at least by me), they have written things that are pretty nonsensical, clinging to SE's explanations where they do not apply, or repeating the word chance for extremely bizarre successions of events.

Can you not jump to conclusions when you have no idea what you're talking about? Thank you.

Edited: 2020-05-23 01:28 by Ragnarok
ShadowGPW
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2020-05-23 01:15 
It's pretty clear that you have no clue what you are doing and just would love to see this clan leave JJnet. So you might get soon what you wish for.
ThunDer
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2020-05-23 00:52 
Well it didn't affect anything significantly so far anyway.

Edited: 2020-05-23 00:53 by ThunDer
ShadowGPW
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2020-05-22 22:56 
I can state the obvious on this one. Should have been done before.
Kev
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2020-05-22 22:10 
reevaluation is still going on. sry that it takes so long but this needs to be done properly.
ShadowGPW
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2020-05-22 20:46 
Any status update boys?
DanZeal
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2020-05-21 10:16 
@MasterSven We do take objections seriously.
MasterSven
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2020-05-21 10:14 

Deleted: 2020-05-21 10:14 by MasterSven
Grytolle
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2020-05-21 09:53 

Deleted: 2020-05-21 10:07 by Grytolle
MasterSven
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2020-05-21 09:17 
Speaking about Naps words of putting yourself in their shoes. I had a dream last night in which I was falsely accused. They bound my hands and I was stuck in a small tent. It doesn't feel nice at all to be punished for something you didn't do. I desired to be treated with a perspective that leaves both options open (guilty or non-guilty) or that maintains the 'innocent until proven' mentality.

Its hard tor me to believe you guys are completely sure. In fact you guys re-evaluating your decision says enough. Also Im quite sure youll decrease a7meds sentence, cuz it doesn't make sense at all according to these rules. The evidence is really inconclusive. I could make a 6 minute video about all of you with suspicious moments. (For me especially a7meds video does not contain super suspicious footage)

This event also happens to be the third episode in a seemingly gpw-admins war. So as others have suggested, I recommend to do some self-inquiry and see to what extend you have been emotionally influenced by earlier events.
yacinedz
avatar
2020-05-21 03:20 
you guys have insufficient evidence you should not have to proceed this more further until you get clear picture whether if he is really hacking or not, everything I've seen so far is completely absurd I can't tell really if it's real or fake and also I wanna say that I agreed with seren and admins should really reconsider about this report.
Ahmo
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2020-05-21 01:38 
Sry if it's out of subject but i'm really impressed by ur analysing skills and wanna hear your opinion about that since i have been listening to this for weeks nonstop
Ahmo
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2020-05-21 01:12 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH6D7KwB_I8
Naps listen and rate please ty
Naps
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2020-05-20 23:49 
Note: this is a reply to gustaf's footage on a7med (basically the first link)

Clip 1:
"a7med sees kris running above him to the right (4.07), last time. without being able to know where kris is"

If by "a7med sees krzy running ABOVE him" means that a7med suddenly shooting at both directions with a weapon that you usually use if your opponent is BELOW you,then i must fear that every random action i do must classify me as a cheater

"a7med shoots only TWO bullets (+1 rf jump) from 4.01-3.48 until he makes a sudden turn at 3.49, unloading a precise bouncer spam on off-screen kris. he even jumps away from the right wall, the exact moment kris starts appearing on his screen."

You can see a7med constantly switching directions until krzy finally comes towards him,it's not only that part when he does a sudden turn,he mostly at (4:01) then back again at (3:54) and (0:28) and back again and he jumps on above the spring to cover most of the area and then change direction again
battle is not about running in circles,it's about being surprising,change of tactics and so on

Clip 2:

"1) 34.50: a7med sees kev going left and players go off-screen. a7med shoots only a small amount of ammo from 34.50-34.42, but then makes a turn and starts SPAMMING bnc on off-screen kev."

This time again,it was constantly done by a7med going clockwise and counter-clockwise,instead of going always into one direction and result into either both players run into circles or predictive gameplay


"34.35 players go off-screen. a7med sees kev going right and he goes to left c till 34.32. from this moment on he can’t consider himself to be safe any longer since kev could have turned and chased him left cuz he was 1-2h. the fishy thing in this scene is the amount and timing of ammo he shoots from here on:"

He could have died yes,probably even with radar,it only takes kev one turn to kill him,if he had radar,on contrary,he wouldn't probably take the risk,even if he has the upper hand,it takes only mutual injury to kill him which it has a high chance of happening and besides what's up with kev camping that spot all the time? wouldn't a7med just be like
"oh i didn't die? he is still camping that spot right...?"


"2) 34.32-34.20: without being able to know where kev is, a7med shoots nothing but 4 seeker bullets while crossing the entire map horizontally, TWICE, but suddenly starts spamming rf at off-screen kev. before the rf spam on off-screen kev, the last time a7med saw kev was 15 seconds ago"

All i saw was a7med checking the toaster powerup and firing at the spring, a7med stops when he sees the bouncers and does a double jump,it's not really witchcraft to predict if the enemy is camping,even after he done it like almost the entire match

" 3) then he goes down and from 34.13 on he’s back to shooting minimal ammo
but starts spamming rf at 34.07 knowing kev returned to the same spot even though he saw him 11 seconds ago, last time."

I saw him switching to seekers,rf,toaaster (at the bottom) in a direction
completly opposite from kev and rf again at top,notice that he uses most of the
time rfs at that part,sure you could argue that he could have switched to
bouncers but well,i haven't ever seen a7med in the entire match shooting bouncers at that location,seem like a repetitive gimmick of his

clip 3

"a7med sees kev last time at UPPER CARROT (29.52) and doesn’t see him go right anymore, but makes a sudden turn + rf spam on off-screen kev at 29.49."

He does a sudden turn yes after he sees kev because he was running towards that side remember,spectators do not see that camera gimmick the players have
he also shoots him with a minimal ammo,after he just took pu rf,if he knew he was there,why didn't he shoot pu rf?,why 1 damage instead of 2?

Also after a7med drops down,a7med could have only tried that since,in that area if the enemy goes behind you with rf it makes you the most vulnerable person right there

clip 4:
"22.57: a7med collects seeker + bnc and starts shooting bnc as he’s falling down. This is a plausible action, covering the left space with bullets. But when kev approaches from below OFF-SCREEN, a7med switches to seek and shoots every seeker bullet he has (he had NOT ran out of bnc yet!). First
of all shooting seeks there like this is far from optimal, as those bullets have a short distance. And second of all 1-2 seeks floating in the air would have been enough there to defend himself against kev coming from below, shooting them precautionary, as a7med could not have known Kev’s location, because a7med died 5 seconds ago (23.02). Instead he spams every seeker ammo he has, knowing kev is jumping up, making sure to hit him."

he did not run out of bnc however,he ran out of pu bnc,and nonpu bnc is not really the most reliable weapon to make sure the bullet goes down,it's not about radar,it's about covering the most area

clip 5:

"1) 8.48: leaving his camp spot after abt 20 seconds, when kris is approaching off-screen."


Didn't he just went for the toaster powerup specifically after having no ammo? and saw pavlus there and he was like "ok w/e he takes it " that could also be a anti-proof that a7med did not know that pavlus was at the powerup


"2) 8.41: encountering rag but already performing double jump back behind the wall when rag is still off-screen. Even though arrow and voicecomm warning by lazar (8.42) were possible, the timing of the backwards jump is perfect."

Indeed,it was after he saw pavlus covering the toaster powerup but then he didn't saw the other powerup up there so he just kinda went away from enemies' base which you shouldn't really stay there

"3) 8.31: going back down, staying opposite to rag and warren who just came up on the right side"
maybe he thought lazar was an enemy and ran away,it did seem like it

clip 6)

"3.18: making sudden turn to avoid kris, who started approaching him off-screen
3.17: hesitating to go down, because rag is coming up, off-screen
3.16: jumping above off-screen rag to escape"

He just jumped into krzy's bullet but if he had radar couldn't he could have just hit rag if he knew he was there and go down without risking to get hit?

clip 7)

"avoiding both off-screen hunters: starts camping at 6.10 and escapes warren at 6.05. notice he can’t just go down because rag is there."

That could be a coincidence,when he goes down he doesn't goes for running
away from warren and rag,he went to the toaster powerup that was just spawning,meaning that he was controlling it, he manages to dodge rag there but not warren

clip 8)
"camps at one spot but dodges off-screen rag at 2.58. a warning by voicecomm from pavlus in 1 second is too unrealistic."

He did camp at one spot and then he saw a seeker,he went down because honestly,why would someone camp there,so he goes to check carrots and he sees rag onscreen after rag drops down

clip 9)

Anyways both fighters seems to be aware of faw camping c,
think about it like this,a flagholder... is camping c..why?
maybe because he is low?,yes and both fighters knew the enemy's spot
so it's more likely a7med just said that he is 1 because a low fighter would camp the carrot,he didn't die,after a7med shot rfs at him,now assuming that a7med knows the carrot's time,a7med could have just assumed the e is 1 since the carrot might have not spawned yet and besides even he did he could have just typed e1 by accident instead of e2,but,how did he know it hit him? theres one thing that SE stated and it actually connects to this,spectators aren't seeing a player's screen if they are running at a certain speed,basically,a7med indeed saw faw getting hit On-SCREEN,and from the speed of the rf it's obvious that a7med gained maximum momentum off them enough so he can see where faw is

Clip 10)

It could be just a typo,he probably meant e1,typos may happen all the time,even tho i never thought i'd ever see the day of someone getting banned because of a typo which turned out to right

Conclusion is:i get that it's easy to ban people just because you can freely point around fingers by using their luck moments against them (which in the would turn into their unluck lol) but to even claim that these are legit proofs without thinking about them objectively or not even talking about how it COULDN'T happen is not the way people should judge something that can potentially ruin someone's jj2 career and of course affects the way this competitive scene can go

but i guess you cannot treat this matter seriously and more objective because it's not YOU that it's been accused,atleast try to put yourselves under that person's shoes and imagine how it is to get accused for something you didn't done and with the lack of proofs,punished just for speculation and the opinion of the staff,you don't need to have radar in your computer to get banned,people can just pretend you have it

Edited: 2020-05-21 00:06 by Naps
DanZeal
avatar
2020-05-20 22:08 
I would like to thank the team who collected the evidence, evaluated them and is now re-evaluating.
There has been more work then people might think.
As an head admin and founder of this site, I do stand by them so far.

I hope that we can enjoy playing this game without cheats.

I also would like to show my appreciation to the team behind JJ2+ for showing some interest in making the anti-cheats more robust.
stijn
avatar
2020-05-20 19:08 
@Toni: while I stand by what I said in that message, and don't mind it being shared per se, I think it's pretty rude to post a message I sent to you privately (this is a J2O PM) here.
Toni
avatar
2020-05-20 17:38 
I wanted to stay out of drama about cheating, but I have to tell that I am convinced that people cheated even before... In our training game vs SRB A a few weeks ago I literally knew that Pavle was using some cheats. He knew EXACTLY where I was. He was hunting me from left to right and trapped me between the platform with guns. Wherever I went, he was there to close my exit. That lasted around 30 seconds and I was sure he knew where I was all the time. Not to mention his stats and camping without shooting ammo when there is nobody close to him. I talked to Hordy in private and he agreed with me that Pav is suspicious but we had no proof. Now we have.

About JJ2+ team - I want to thank you for your contribution to JJ2 game, for all the effort you put in this ''dying game'' (quoting JJ2+ team member) and this is all really honest.

But about JJ2 anticheats - shut up everyone and stop defending JJ2+ team when they showed almost no interest in making an anticheat when I sent them the source code of a cheating program years ago.

https://i.imgur.com/62TExtu.png

Even other JJ2+ team member told me in JJ2 server that he (and others) are more interested in fixing singleplayer bugs because multiplayer is dying... years ago. Which provided false speaking now, around 5 years after that talk.

That is literally the thing what made me stop being really active in JJ2. I showed up just occasionally for nostalgia and to feel the fun I had before.

This is not an attack to JJ2+ team, this is just my point of view and I am not lying. I am just saying that JJ2+ team had nobody who would want to develop a good and working anticheat to prevent cheaters and not limit the fun for spectators
Kev
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2020-05-20 16:51 
every single moment of the "evidence" is still getting reevaluated in full detail, based on SE's points.

please stand by.
ThunDer
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2020-05-20 16:46 
Replying to SE's "Did your detectives know that":

- Yes, but that doesn't give you a hell of an edge to be able to swiftly react to offscreen players the way they do. Moreover, there are plenty of moments where both stay stationary for a period of time when literally there's none nearby but as soon as a hunter approaches they react perfectly 2s-ish right before it so that wouldn't be even the case here.
- Nice one, but I myself have tried relying on that but it's always inefficient because if you are camping a certain spot while being somewhat at minimal speed and that's sort of the case for A7med you'd swiftly get outrun by a hunter spamming RF from a direction with max speed, LET ALONE the relatively high ping he has so he barely has that advantage on his side.
- Blaster exists for a reason, could also use this now: https://youtu.be/x-pDG8q5Bdo?t=1555
- For the next two points: Well if you really insist you might as well just watch the entire videos of A7med's gameplay in Triton and should subsequently observe:
a. An astronomical moments count where he whenever attempts to hunt he's almost always aware of the way to go and with the appropriate weapon in accordance with the opponent's whereabouts.
b. A plenty of cases where he perfectly manages to avoid being on intercept routes where he would directly get hit and that's the case when he's really low on HP.
- TBF, some could follow that but on the contrary there are these moments where enemy flagholder HP simply didn't get reported when they got hit and despite that their HP was reported perfectly, so I'll stay neutral about this.
Hakum
avatar
2020-05-20 15:25 
emo emo emo
ShadowGPW
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2020-05-20 13:50 
**** I've deleted the comment instead of edit.

"That's ok Gry, I wans't that diplomatic myself. I absolutely understand the pressure a supervisor/admin is in."
ShadowGPW
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2020-05-20 13:48 

Deleted: 2020-05-20 13:49 by ShadowGPW
cooba
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2020-05-20 13:45 
At least edit out the falsehoods about antiradar negatively impacting the player experience.
Grytolle
avatar
2020-05-20 13:34 
To be clear, I am not pointing any fingers at the JJ2+ team. Blur back in the day had 0 interest in such things, but the current team has been consistently helpful in introducing features that are useful for JJNet games, /antiradar is proof of that, and there has been much support for features we introduced via mutators.


Edit:
Like I said, if you or Urbs, maybe Naps, want to get involved, you're welcome to. Personally, I would even consider Artegor, but that would cause way too much drama.

I'm sorry for going off on you so much just now, Shadow. It was uncalled for. I'm not a fan of removing or editing my comments afterwards though to make me look better, so I'll just let them remain.

Edited: 2020-05-20 13:42 by Grytolle
ShadowGPW
avatar
2020-05-20 13:33 
Even if it's just blocking one way to possible cheat, I see it as anti-cheat form.

Yes, as a headadmin at ClanBase and ESL we had a counsel of top 10 clans representing. Some games had a bit more like CounterStrike. JJ is a small enough community to represent all clans. It saved so much unnecessary drama and whining. Especially with cheating/rules changes.. admins like you are just human.

Keeping the irons ironic, ironically I've misjudged you aswell.

For now I'll shut up and wait for the SE review.
stijn
avatar
2020-05-20 13:32 
Just want to jump in here and say that antiradar can of course be updated for a new plus version. For example SJ recently noted that it was annoying that spectators weren't able to see players' health and that has been taken up as something to make optional.

If there are other suggestions like that just bring them up and we can talk about it. JJ2+ is not a static thing you have no influence on and if there are aspects of antiradar that can be improved that is definitely something that can be worked on.
Grytolle
avatar
2020-05-20 13:22 
You're the only one who mentioned 'anti-cheating programs'. SE did no such thing.

Yes, the point about Snook was just a joke.

You often draw on your wealth of experience as a pro-player on other games. Tell me, was it common that every team involved in a league had an admin? Or did you just pull that principle out of thin air?

That said, we might actually have to enforce /antiradar now despite all the problems it causes for ***players*** (somehow you read past this word last time) and viewers, because people can't trust their opponents anymore.

About confirmation bias, maybe I'm misjudging you. Perhaps you actually did take the time to review the evidence in detail and look through if SE's points, while true in principle, are actually applicable to the situations before you spoke. Otherwise it's very ironic.
ShadowGPW
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2020-05-20 13:08 
Ofcourse it's confirmation bias, you are smart enough to see that yourself in this case.

Snook isn't even in your chat, just supports this site. Has nothing to do with base operations of the ladder right? Not that it matters, ill discuss if someone willing to put spare time into this. I think it's a good thing. Thanks for offering that.

Is SE telling lies here about anti-radar? I don't believe that, anti-cheat should always be priority over spectators 'enjoyment' anyday.... Or put some community focus on it to fix this.


Edited: 2020-05-20 13:14 by ShadowGPW
Grytolle
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2020-05-20 12:51 
What SE said is being evaluated.

Shadow, why are you latching on to it before you've taken the time to evaluate it, all the while speaking of 'confirmation bias'?

The reason you don't have any admin is that all your old members are inactive. Among the active ones, they are relatively new or have already had a radar story (Artegor/Pavle) before. If an older member like you, Urbs, or Kenny want to be involved, that's another story altogether.

Actually, I just checked your player list, however, and apparently you're technically actually well-represented in [GpW]Snook.

Your talking about 'anti-cheating programs' shows that you have no idea what you're talking about, because there aren't any. There is a feature in JJ2+ called /antiradar, but it never caught on because the issues with it ruined the fun for both players and spectators.

It's a fair point that A7med shouldn't be punished as harshly as Pavle, since this is his first time, but Pavle's second (if I remember correctly that there was actually any action taken last time).

Edited: 2020-05-20 12:54 by Grytolle
ShadowGPW
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2020-05-20 12:05 
Thanks for your unbiased opinion SE, this changes the story for me.

I haven't mangled with GPW business in JJ2 since 2004, I gave this responsability to Newspaz and Urbs back then. But I do have a thing to say from my perspective.

The members are being put on non-active status (instead of a kick from the clan), this after reading SE's comment, because it starts to look like confirmation bias. Instead of detective work.

But I'm absolutely baffled that anti-cheat programs aren't mandatory. I'm also suprised that the punishment doesn't confirm with the ruling and older punishments.

Also other clans have representitive in the admin crew and GPW is pretty much on-existant there.

With that said, I'm not sure if GPW has a future on this platform if things don't change up.

Season 18 will represent all active clans in their crew. One way or the other.

Edited: 2020-05-20 12:44 by ShadowGPW
Vegeta
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2020-05-20 07:48 
cx 1st again emo emo emo emo
SirEmentaler
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2020-05-20 05:42 
I support the full transparency of this announcement and the documents that came with it. I'd like to ask a few questions that I hope you'll answer in the spirit of transparency.

Did your detectives know that:
- your field of view is larger in the direction you're running and spectators don't see that (this covers about half of all claims in the main document);
- off-screen RF explosions are audible;
- players fire ammo less often if they're running out of it;
- always going to the carrot that's the next one to spawn is not the winning strategy in battle mode;
- seeing that your opponent is not present where you expected them to be can be used to extrapolate that they went somewhere else;
- flag holders who are camping a carrot are probably low on health;
- it's possible to remember health of a player from before they captured a flag, especially when you're the one who last hit them and they didn't die nor had any way of healing in between?

The list of matches you found suspicious incidents in is pretty impressive! How many did you actually analyze before you found the ones that seem to match your hypothesis? What evidence to the contrary did you take into account?

The statistic about A7med spamming RFs is very cool. Who was in the control group and how did they do in comparison? Did you find that most of the time they had no clue where their opponent is in a 100x50 level?

Why was anti-radar not enabled during such important matches as clan wars?

What did A7med and pavlus say about the incidents you list? How did they defend themselves before you banned them?

What was the reasoning behind the period of 2 years that was chosen for both players' bans? According to the website's anti-cheating policy this is the longest possible period of punishment reserved only for repeat offenders. Were both players already previously banned for a period of one month for previous offenses? In comparison, when RL clan members were proven beyond any doubt to be using radar, they received 2-month bans, with a 1-year ban for SlaYer for previous offenses.
ShakerNL
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2020-05-20 03:48 
#jj2drama
ShadowGPW
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2020-05-20 01:48 
Cheaters should be banned, clan deserves the punishment if players went total fubar.

Because It corrupts the spirit of competition. This while the game is already fragile with the low count of active clans and players.

Edited: 2020-05-20 01:53 by ShadowGPW
Kev
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2020-05-20 01:24 
vegeta, urbs did nothing wrong here and he is right in some of his statements. no need to start blaming him.
Vegeta
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2020-05-20 00:54 

Deleted: 2020-05-20 00:57 by Vegeta
Vegeta
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2020-05-20 00:43 
urbs is now crying and that's why they were winning not only they were bad with people also and behaving bs
GrytmasternCC
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2020-05-19 23:42 
If anyone wishes to analyse the grand final in the same manner, and try to find similar moments from cx players (there aren't any lol). I would be happy to send you the full match with all 6 screens shown.

Edit: fixed a grammatical mistake

Edited: 2020-05-20 01:01 by GrytmasternCC
[GpW]Urbs
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2020-05-19 22:55 
Ok, for the final time King, I apologize.

I had no clue about the cheating part but I knew they were controversial players who are hated by most of the community. So that's on me and I apologize for allowing them to prosper.

Again, I stand by the tone and the message of the original comment, if you can't live with that then that's really not on me.
King
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2020-05-19 22:42 
That's not what i meant by that. What i meant is that you came across as extremely insincere. You took no responsibility by not saying people who've been in your clan shouldn't have done that,nor said you're sorry for cheating that came from your clan since that's not what you wanted out of your clan.

Instead your comment makes you look as if you're just placing blame on everything and everybody else so you don't have to take any responsibility. I didn't say that to spite you(though i'm honestly feeling a bit of spite right now.) or anything like that, what i'm saying is it doesn't seem like you're getting your point across the way you wanted it.

Edited: 2020-05-19 22:43 by King
[GpW]Urbs
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2020-05-19 22:32 
Fine, no problem King, I can definitely apologize. It won't help anybody much, but since this whole mess warranted such an investigation and we were in the middle of it, I apologize for the mess that was caused. But I stand by the other points.
King
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2020-05-19 22:28 
Did you seriously just blame everybody and everything except for people who've blatantly and very stupidly cheated?

Could've atleast just apologized on [GpW]'s behalf since they WERE in [GpW] while this happened, even if you don't condone cheating.
[GpW]Urbs
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2020-05-19 22:18 
As being more or less inactive these things, together with the ddos accusations from 2 weeks ago came as a bit of a surprise. We have discussed these issues with SJ and Gry and I guess that that is all we can say. I would like to make two points which I had made to Gry and SJ privately and I would like to make them public as well.

On the issue of evidence:

When I was first contacted about this issue, one day ago (which I will never completely forgive everybody who's been involved in this), I had hoped for something akin to technical evidence. I'm not familiar with JJ2+ infrastructure, but I had hoped that the evidence would be completely clear cut, that there would be a digital trace of these events. Instead I was given an overwhelming amount of video coupled with an interpretation. Now, to be fair, in complex real life situations it is often the case that bonne hommi (good people, might have got the spelling wrong) decide based on some arbitrary, but usually well founded rule whethere or not a person is guilty or not. And this is how I choose to interpret this situation, because I want for the ladder to be competitive and clean in the future as well (even though it's now only a 2 way race between t3 and CX).

That being said, our brains are incredibly powerful tools and they are incredibly good at rationalization, we do it sub-consciously all the time. And we are also full of biases. Couple these two qualities and add a tendency of our brains to overfit on historical data (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overfitting ) and one can basically analyze any given set of data to conform to a pre-conceived belief. But this is part of who we are and if we are being completely honest, even if this punishment was merely a consequence of spite, one does have to wonder at least to some degree, about why one is perceived in such a negative way by most of the community (i.e. if you act like a jerk, there will eventually be a reaction). Now to the second issue.

On how this whole affair was handled:

Perhaps more important than the first point is how this whole process had been set up from the begining. The team collecting this evidence had been gathering it up for over a year. In this time SJ had actually met me in person and didn't bring up this point even though he must have been already very suspicious. Perhaps he was just being gracious - again, for now it is my intent to interpret this set of actions as well-meaning. Now you can't tell me that spending time gathering haphazard evidence is more important than actually working out the kinks in the infrastructure thereby making sure that the league is legit. Now we get retroactive punishments and everybody hates each other's guts, well played boys.

Furthermore, if you had suspicion about GpW players, would that not warrant a council decision to use antiradar for official matches, or at least of clanwars? How the hell is that not enforced? When the UFC (big mixed martial arts org) decided to clean up its act it did not do so by taking away achievements from the past just because some fighter (Overeem was calle Ubereem due to steroids) had been using certain enhancements (allegedly), no, they made a deal with USADA (think antiradar in our example) and made sure that if you want to fight you need to conform to strict testing.

Did the fighters like having to deal with USADA? No, they did not. But they had to suffer through it for the sake of competitive integrity. So you don't like antiradar? tough luck. Instead this was almost like a situation of entrapment, where our competitors and the council were basically fine with a whole season worth of games being played even though they supposedly knew that GpW had been cheating. And even if they didn't at the time, even if they had just suspected it, they should have employed preventive measures. That would also have served as an experiment, now wouldnt it? When we played vs Slayer with antiradar, they lost. You could have done something similar. Instead our brand name will never be the same again.

And again, while nobody was under any obligation to say anything, somebody from the council could have voiced some concern so that I could have at least done some basica utilitarian calculus: do I trust SJ and Gry to be right in this matter and therefore kick the 2 players or do I go for the possibility of three-peat. As it is, agency was given to the council.

Oh and of course GpW does not condone cheating and I absolutely abhor radar use. That being said, I was never the tech guy in this community developing these things or using them, something which maybe even some of the players giving the verdict cannot really claim for themselves. Even if it was just to understand what's out there.
Ahmo
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2020-05-19 21:59 
fair enough .. but the sad part is no more urbs comments emo emo
MaximuS
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2020-05-19 21:55 
Can't say I knew all along but for a long time playing against you guys wasn't fun

Long live JJ2

Edit: thanks for renaming me to 'another dog' on GpW server for having my own opinion even before this post was made

Edited: 2020-05-20 12:05 by MaximuS
ThunDer
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2020-05-19 21:52 
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/693586834361417809/712372343711989872/unknown.png

GrytmasternCC
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2020-05-19 21:50 
omg wrn
King
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2020-05-19 21:49 
#shocker
Vegito
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2020-05-19 21:49 
"Well what a surprise"
Ragnarok
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2020-05-19 21:24 
emo
Krzysiek
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2020-05-19 21:16 
we all know it started much earlier than only during season 17.

anyway

emo emo emo

Edited: 2020-05-19 21:28 by Krzysiek
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