JJnet's forum

Gry's argument: Kimo has high standards for jokes :D

Stop using the "bunny game for kids" card because it's bullshit If it's just that then why are you all still here, playing ladders day and night, taking all the fun away with turning this into some retarded cybersports competition? Don't you ever wonder about the futility of it all after every other time you say 'air' or 'lag' or 'bg'? I dunno, maybe you all just hate yourselves for playing a "bunny game for kids". I know I don't.

apart from "taking all the fun away", i agree with cooba :carrot:

"but making jokes about banning someone when u actually have the power to do that is NOT funny." Oh my DEAR FUCKING GOD. Can you re-read (or read) what you wrote? 'making jokes about banning sum1'? What? I didn't make a joke for banning you. I just made a joke that I was a Trustee Admin. That's all. It's your fault for the rest. @Ana and i:m. I agree with both of you. It was my fault for reacting like that moti, I know, and I am sorry. But I reacted like that because I organized that 3v3, waited for ppl 5-10 mins, then got afk 3-4 mins and you couldn't wait for me. It's my fault, yes, and again, I'm sorry. @All, this is probably the last comment by me. And kimo, I don't understand what you want from me now. Some members DOES NOT HATE ME, but they don't want me to be an admin, so what? I am 100% sure that SirEmentaler doesn't hate me, because if he does, he'd not help me with my levels to improve them. He just doesn't want me to be an admin, it's his opinion, and as I said I support everyone's opinion. Don't please tell that all who voted for NO hates me. Ok, cooba does, but not everyone there, and again, it's not your business to check who hates and who doesn't hate me. Even I don't care that much about that, why would you? Btw, this reminds me of something what happened IRL. Chelsea Handler (I think it's her name) insulted my country. This is the nice way how those musicians answered to her: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eorffEPuJo So, without the story, I'd answer you on the same way. Without insulting, without anything bad, but in a nice way.

:( dont call me 'all'

I am not :*

Just to clarify some stuff... When we were chatting on the server, we had no clue we were talking to KiMO (he was faking Zoro and I didn't check his IP). That he didn't realize Toni had dumped a fake login message apparently made us think he was the real Zoro, so we decided to have a bit of fun. When I saw KiMO starting this thread, I thought it wouldn't hurt to have a prank on him (he flamed me on the server for what I had done previously, which played a part in my decision) and some other people posting in the thread, but now this discussion has clearly got out of hand. Although I don't like to point it out, I think it's Urbs' comment (and Toni's reply on it) what is still keeping this thread alive despite the fact that he made many good points in it. I didn't expect something like this to happen (I was anticipating people to consider the case humorous for a while and then forget about it). What drove Urbs to posting that comment was most likely Toni himself overreacting to responses on this thread. I think many people overreacted here, starting with me (because of some issues I had with JDC matches and discussions I had with Faw and Gry, but those are different stories), then carrying on with KiMO (he complained about what I did two days ago and that Toni was a Trustee), Toni (he flamed KiMO on the server and then here, and afterwards he replied to Urbs' comment), Jake (he banned KiMO from the server for no clear reason, and then gave him a ban of a week for a single faking incident), and finally Urbs (he targeted his comment at Toni due to Toni threatening people with a ban once, not realizing Toni hadn't been completely serious). I made a bad mistake when letting this mess grow, but the main driving force behind the discussion is people attacking Toni with numerous different arguments and Toni flaming them back. Stop it, both sides. On Urbs' comment, although I don't like him making it that serious, I do agree with a lot of points in there. Toni seems to lose his nerve quite easily every now and then (I'm not saying he was the only one :P). The Mafia analogy Urbs wrote might be closer to the state of affairs than he thinks, as I got to practice deceiving people in several games of Mafia I played IRL :D. Although DanZeal himself is a good head for the Zeal servers and the JJ.net community, I don't think his administrator selection policy always makes the cut. If I were to decide about the crew, I'd most likely reorganize it entirely and split it evenly among the active and stable clans. The JJ.net crew is a bit less biased than before, but the Zeal servers are admittedly still controlled by CC, NF, and VS. About the feasibility of a higher level of democracy Urbs pointed out, I don't think it can be achieved on a large scale as long as both the main dedicated gaming servers and the year-round league site are controlled by a single person recruiting only people he knows well (yes, I'm actually going against my long-term friend here, but I think his recruitment decisions don't simply work sometimes).

I am seriously wondering why this had to get so far out of hand, however :)

toni, blonde much? i never said whoever voted in the poll hates u or not, u are again trying to play the victim role so everyone would be like "ohhh toni, everybody's against him and we have to take his part because he cant fucking handle it". i love to see how u also tried to write a pretty solid comment but the only arguments u actually have against me there are not even clear bcs ure stating that a part of the ppl who voted "no" dont hate u, and i can't only agree with that. [quote]I thought it wouldn't hurt to have a prank on him[/quote] wtf, so ure saying that u thought i was zoro and u wanted to "trick" me because of that (a joke which even costed me a ban)? what did u expect zoro to do? stay there and don't understand that u fucking moron admins were having a good laugh in the teamchat while the poor me on the other side would stay and argue there with u like a noob in front of toni's ass? no ty, bitch. and about what happened the time u banned moti and kicked me twice.. we don't fucking care if ure mega obsessed with JDC and u have to abuse ur admin powers to get ur 165 damn points, but that's a public server and since u weren't playing THAT TIME we could spec off and get to get our free spots, even if you like it or not. but yeah, when some admin like nerd doesn't agree with those shitty things = BAN BAN BAN BAN. and no, it doesn't matter if u banned her for 6 years or for 25 mins. it's still a ban. nerd when he's banning: http://upload.digiex.net/files/srrtn92evzshmx4ojgkm.png since that was toni's last comment, im actually sad that he or even nerd couldn't clarify everything. it's just sad :| im starting to think andrei (kenny) was right.. as long as u show them solid and clear arguments, they (admins) will always get something to contradict you, even if it's right or not.

[quote] im starting to think andrei (kenny) was right.. as long as u show them solid and clear arguments, they (admins) will always get something to contradict you, even if it's right or not.[/quote] That is true. On the Toni issue,we have seen enough,we don't hate him but we do not want him as an admin either,so please no flamewars now? :)

that's what i was saying, dunno where toni got the idea that we hate him now. :|

true ron. im kinda sorry about that skull-splitting part of my comment now, but when I saw that comment of his (ok sure, now i know he was joking) I almost went berserk right there. I contained myself for a while but then i saw this topic

Commander on the rampage [img]http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/smilies/stick/smile.gif[/img] So,what now? We're all gonna shut up and wait for the next flamewar to bring up this issue or?

Try thinking of a solution?

Why if it won't be used?

Lithium is right. Toni is a nice guy, but there's a difference between being a nice guy and a good admin. A good solution might be rehauling ZD's and let's select ten Trustees by democratic vote - another option is having more different hosts, each having its own admin crew so it won't be as biased. This could also reduce the lag on the ZD's.

Again,Grytolle,what are you speaking of? If it's the Toni thing,just prevent the admins from playing along in such lame jokes. The joke was supposed to go to Zoro,why so? Do the admins have anything against him? Should they be the admins if so? The crew issue (I completely agree with Urbs,there are almost no differences between the two crews) can't be solved like this because you people just dismiss everything we say as we do not know what are we talking about.

[quote]The crew issue (I completely agree with Urbs,there are almost no differences between the two crews) can't be solved like this because you people just dismiss everything we say as we do not know what are we talking about.[/quote] No - but if you want a democratic system here you need to think about what constitutes a voter. One clan, one vote? That's hardly fair: you can create a clan to get an extra vote in an important discussion. One vote per player? That would feel unfair for the small clans. Votes depending on your clan's score? Doesn't sound very democratic but I guess it would have its benefits. That applied to JJ.net of course, where there's more of an interest in fairness: It doesn't belong to one person. If DZ would suddenly start assing around on JJ.net, you can always talk to Nimrod about it, who personally wants there to be a jj site more popular than j2o, so he'd have an interest in keeping the users. As far as I can tell, though, you guys seem to have a lot less issues with how jj.net is run than with what happens in ZD. (Apart from users not being promoted to jj.net admin for lack of vacancies). In ZD each player is there as themselves, so I don't see any (major) fundamental issue with a democratic vote. On the other hand, everyone (well, almost) agrees that DZ can do whatever he wants with his jj2 servers. Don't always complain without thinking of a better way to do things, please. We can't always think of solutions ourselves. If you want something urgently, you should be willing to make some cognitive effort. Edit: You could try to design some kind of evaluation questionaire to be used to evaluate ZD trustees. That's something that could potentially help DZ make decisions.

[quote]If it's the Toni thing,just prevent the admins from playing along in such lame jokes. The joke was supposed to go to Zoro,why so? Do the admins have anything against him? Should they be the admins if so?[/quote] No idea if they do. That would depend on why they have something against Zoro, wouldn't it? I agree that "we didn't know it was Kimo" wasn't the greatest defensive argument.

I have no idea what the so-called series of "JJNET blunders" are, but as little logical sense as parts of Urbs' post makes to me, his feelings are very real. Personally, I know that I will never be an as good ZD trustee as I am a jj.net admin. Having the extra server commands just isn't worth it and I never could resist the temptation of a funny kick (but eventhough the person I kicked liked it, I will half of the time hear about it later as an example of power abuse), so I moved myself to the "third" category, and removed DZ computer from my teamviewer list. Ask someone else when you want an extra slot opened or whatever. The following people are trustees: [quote]26 (Hunter), 23 (Sasik), 45 (WarrioR), 68 (DJazzy), 95 (FawFuL), 91 (Vivando), 15 (Hitch), 104 (Nerd), 100 (Ktos), 129 (Jake), 22 (Anubis), 17 (Vegito)[/quote] If you want out too (and that could be a good idea, because DZ will be forced to make changes if he has no trustees left. Us all resigning should restore help restore some faith in the organisation as a whole), just ask me and I'll edit your password privileges on the site.

Well I have to concur that when it comes to handling ZD's there will always be problems. I mean, some people are just noobs and they will get kicked and they will feel that they were dealt a grave injustice. And although I can at this moment not think of any systemic way to improve the system, some self restraint is as good advice as any. But that's just useless advice. A code of conduct would probably be equally useless, as guidelines are at the end of the day just guidelines. And somebody would have to come up with a helluva lot of em.

[quote]Well I have to concur that when it comes to handling ZD's there will always be problems. I mean, some people are just noobs and they will get kicked and they will feel that they were dealt a grave injustice.[/quote]Yes, but those people generally shape up after a while. [quote]And although I can at this moment not think of any systemic way to improve the system, some self restraint is as good advice as any. But that's just useless advice. A code of conduct would probably be equally useless, as guidelines are at the end of the day just guidelines. And somebody would have to come up with a helluva lot of em. [/quote] Let's hope somebody feels up to the task then :p The list doesn't have to be exhaustive at once. A good start would be a list of valid kick reasonsa and a list of invalid ones. New cases could be dealt with as they appear.

Good to see this going somewhere. I suppose we could all work on the list,and some voting would do - that doesn't mean such changes have to come right now,but we'll see what the players want.

We could do a similar system to the politics one. Some ppl could be admins for 1 year or less and after that they could be replaced. How many admins are needed? I don`t know how the voting would go in this case though. If u want democracy, then this could work.

Grytolle: Valid kick reasons: Cheating. Ruining a battle with the admincodes. Insulting consistently. Spamming constantly during a game.